Future of Podcasting: Daniel and Dave's 2025 Wishlist
Dave and Daniel share their biggest wishes for the future of podcasting in 2025, highlighting the need for cross-app comments as a critical feature to enhance audience engagement. They discuss the potential benefits this could bring to both listeners and podcasters, fostering a sense of community and interaction that is often lacking in the current landscape.
They also examine the complexities of implementing such features, considering various technical approaches and the importance of making it easy for users to participate.
The conversation also touches on the evolving landscape of podcast monetization, particularly the desire for streamlined payment options that empower creators while minimizing fees.
Reflecting on the past year and the frustrations felt within the podcasting community, Dave and Daniel emphasize the importance of collaboration and unified development efforts to realize these ambitious goals.
Takeaways:
- Daniel J. Lewis emphasizes the need for cross-app comments in podcasting, fostering community engagement across platforms.
- Both hosts desire unified features in podcasting to streamline the user experience and encourage adoption.
- Dave Jackson highlights the significance of listener recognition, valuing direct feedback through financial contributions.
- The discussion explores the importance of making podcast payments easier for both creators and listeners.
- Emerging technologies in podcasting could shape how content creators interact and monetize their shows effectively.
- The hosts stress the potential of community-building through shared comments and listener contributions for podcasters.
Links referenced in this episode:
Your Hosts
Find Dave at schoolofpodcasting.com
Find Daniel at theaudacitytopodcast.com
Support The Show
Daniel
Podgagement - Boost Your Audience Engagement
Social Subscribe and Follow Plugin
Dave
New Podcast Apps
Listen to this podcast on any of the fine value-enabled app at www.newpodcastapps.com
FOLLOW THE SHOW ON A MODERN PODCAST APP
00:00 - None
00:03 - The Future of Podcasting
02:40 - The Future of Podcasting: Cross-App Comments
11:24 - The Future of Podcasting Comments
14:33 - If Only There Was a School
14:59 - Grow Your Engagement
20:52 - The Business of Podcasting
23:15 - The Value of Giving Back
32:57 - The Future of Payment Structures in Podcasting
39:39 - Disruptors in Podcast Monetization
45:52 - Support and Engagement in Podcasting
Our biggest wishes for 2025.
Daniel J. Lewis
This is the future of Podcasting, where.
Host
We ponder what awaits the podcasters of today.
Host
From the school of podcasting, here's Dave Jackson.
Host
And from the Audacity to Podcast, here's Daniel J.
Host
Lewis.
Host
Daniel, future of podcasting.
Host
Episode number 55, Happy New Year.
Host
It's our biggest wishes for 2025.
Host
It's a new year.
Host
We've got new hopes, new dreams, new things to.
Host
And so I know, I guess it was last year we talked about our.
Host
Our biggest hopes for 2024.
Host
It wasn't a prediction show, it was a hope show.
Host
And so this year we thought we would pick just.
Host
If you could only have one, what would be your biggest hope, your biggest wish?
Host
If you had a whole team of developers and they could only work on one thing, what would you have them work on?
Daniel J. Lewis
Yeah, because there's so much being developed right now, and I understand there is some frustration among the community right now because there are lots of little things being discussed, lots of little features, lots of other things being talked about and experimented with and problems trying to be solved and certain things being played with and certain new ideas being developed.
Daniel J. Lewis
There's a lot of stuff going on.
Daniel J. Lewis
So this isn't to downplay any of that, that there is momentum, there is stuff moving.
Daniel J. Lewis
But what if.
Daniel J. Lewis
What if we could all unify around one or two features?
Daniel J. Lewis
And even for this episode, what is our one feature?
Daniel J. Lewis
Like, my one feature and your one feature, Dave, and you listening right now, what would be the one thing you would want too?
Daniel J. Lewis
Now, your ability to respond to that kind of depends on one of these two things that we're going to share as well.
Host
Yeah, that is true.
Host
And I get it.
Host
We're a bunch of nerds and are creative, so it's really easy for us to just scamper off.
Host
And there are times when, like you said, I know there are times I'm a little frustrated because it's like we have a hundred peanuts and we're all pushing them, like a centimeter each.
Host
There's part of me, and then I feel like I'm selfish.
Host
I'm like, but I want my thing.
Host
I feel like I'm in.
Host
What was the bad girl in Willy Wonka?
Host
You know, I want it now, Daddy.
Host
You know, but if we could just pick one peanut and move it a mile, you know, I think in a way we might feel like we're accomplishing more because we are.
Host
Like you said, we are moving forward.
Host
We're moving 100 peanuts at a time instead of four peanuts a mile.
Host
And we have two things we're going to talk about.
Host
Daniel, I will let you have the floor First.
Daniel J. Lewis
My big thing that I would love to see happen in 2025 is finally cross app comments.
Daniel J. Lewis
The reason for this is I'm now looking aggressively at every proposal and discussion point and idea that comes in with podcasting 2.0.
Daniel J. Lewis
And there are so many good ideas.
Daniel J. Lewis
I love it.
Daniel J. Lewis
I love the creativity.
Daniel J. Lewis
With every new idea that comes in, I think, how does this benefit the audience?
Daniel J. Lewis
Because that's what we really, really need to focus on.
Daniel J. Lewis
For the audience to want to use a different podcast app, there has to be a benefit to them, not a benefit to the podcaster.
Daniel J. Lewis
Not some little data thing that's just a super niche sort of need.
Daniel J. Lewis
But there needs to be a big benefit to the podcaster that they think, yes, I am so willing to switch podcast apps because I want this other thing and I would love to see that be cross app comments.
Daniel J. Lewis
And I think it is something that benefits everyone, really.
Daniel J. Lewis
It is of benefit to the audiences and it's also of benefit to the podcasters because it is that engagement.
Daniel J. Lewis
So, again, cross app comments is the idea.
Daniel J. Lewis
I'll give some implementation examples in a minute.
Daniel J. Lewis
But it's the idea that you can use whatever podcasting 2.0 compatible podcast app to consume a podcast.
Daniel J. Lewis
And there would be a comment field where you could post a comment in there and read comments from others who are using the same or different podcast apps.
Daniel J. Lewis
So that's where it's cross app comments.
Daniel J. Lewis
It's comments across the different apps out there.
Daniel J. Lewis
It doesn't matter which app you're using.
Daniel J. Lewis
You can still participate in the conversation with the podcasters as well as other people in the community listening to the same episodes.
Daniel J. Lewis
Because that is where so much happens.
Daniel J. Lewis
Like, Dave, you see this every Saturday morning.
Daniel J. Lewis
What happens in the chat room while you're doing Ask the podcast coach.
Host
Yeah, a giant chat that many times is having their own show.
Host
Like, I'm talking about topic A and I look over in the chat room has gone into topic B and C.
Host
But the beauty of it is, and that's one of the reasons why I still do that show, is I'm getting instant feedback.
Host
And in the case of across a comment, I mean, those are live.
Host
And yeah, I can go back and have YouTube play them, but the fact that I could not have to go to YouTube to see them and the fact that they're just kind of there and you can just go in and see them, I don't have to like scroll through, halfway through.
Host
I could probably just have it there to do that.
Host
That would be one of my questions.
Host
Where are these comments going to live?
Host
Because they got to be stored somewhere.
Daniel J. Lewis
Yeah.
Daniel J. Lewis
And there are multiple technical approaches that could be considered to that.
Daniel J. Lewis
Like, we've talked about things like Activity Streams and Activity Pub.
Daniel J. Lewis
There have been other proposals for different things.
Daniel J. Lewis
Here's what I think it comes down to.
Daniel J. Lewis
Technologically, we need something in the RSS feed.
Daniel J. Lewis
And as I pointed out a while back, and also has been brought up again recently, there is already a comments tag for RSS feeds.
Daniel J. Lewis
And what the comments tag is supposed to do is it points to the location of comments and that's it.
Daniel J. Lewis
And there is no specification for how those comments are then formatted.
Daniel J. Lewis
We could say in podcasting 2.0, maybe it's simply podcast colon, comments is the tag.
Daniel J. Lewis
Maybe we hijack the comments tag.
Daniel J. Lewis
But we could say that comments need to follow a particular structure, a data structure for it to be readable for the app.
Daniel J. Lewis
Whether that's XML, GraphQL, JSON, anything like that, it doesn't really matter.
Daniel J. Lewis
But it's something that the apps can use in something that's standard.
Daniel J. Lewis
But we could go with that approach where it simply links to where those comments exist.
Daniel J. Lewis
Then there is the issue of how do those comments get there?
Daniel J. Lewis
And the ability for the podcaster to have moderation control over those comments, which is a very important thing without blocking someone.
Daniel J. Lewis
Because there could be a case like a family friendly podcast and someone says, that's the bleeping funniest thing I've ever heard.
Daniel J. Lewis
And they're just being genuine that they thought was hilarious.
Daniel J. Lewis
But you as the podcaster think, ah, I don't want bleeping there in my comments because this is a family friendly podcast.
Daniel J. Lewis
I don't want that profanity in the comments section.
Daniel J. Lewis
So you might want to delete it, but you don't want to block that person from commenting because it's not like they're being abusive or they're attacking you or they're trolling, anything like that.
Daniel J. Lewis
You just want to remove that comment.
Daniel J. Lewis
And I think there might also be a good need for the audiences to be able to edit their comments to fix typos, correct things, update things as needed and such.
Daniel J. Lewis
The editing, that's not necessarily as important, I think, but it would still be really good to be there.
Daniel J. Lewis
But technologically all you need to do is whatever that comments tag is linking to could be essentially an index of, here's where all of the comments exist.
Daniel J. Lewis
So just like an RSS feed is basically an index of audio or video files along with some metadata with each of those things, the comments feed for each episode and for the show overall could simply be that index of.
Daniel J. Lewis
Here's where all of these comments are.
Daniel J. Lewis
Now an interesting advantage to that is that it could then be easily multi platform where you could tie it in with bluesky or X or Mastodon or Activity Pub or your website or anything like that.
Daniel J. Lewis
All it needs to be is that the data from whatever that platform is is accessible, freely accessible through some kind of API method so that that comment could be displayed in.
Daniel J. Lewis
So imagine this, you could have some people commenting through Activity Pub, like en masse Dawn.
Daniel J. Lewis
You could have some people commenting on your website, you could have some people commenting on some podcast apps.
Daniel J. Lewis
Proprietary commenting system like GoodPods has a proprietary commenting system.
Daniel J. Lewis
It could be anything like that.
Daniel J. Lewis
Then all that needs to be done is that data needs to be exposed in a standard way and then each comment has an entry in that index file.
Daniel J. Lewis
And then the podcast apps though would have to understand how to read each of those comments from those separate platforms.
Daniel J. Lewis
You know, GoodPods might format their JSON data differently from how Activity Pub formats it.
Daniel J. Lewis
That could be allowable as long as it's obvious which format it is.
Daniel J. Lewis
And then the podcast apps can just support new things.
Daniel J. Lewis
So there is that kind of method that does push more onto the app developers to build in support for, okay, now we need to support this new protocol that's supported in this.
Daniel J. Lewis
But still the concept is that I really think the technology itself that we use should not matter so much as the accessibility, which is what's most important for the audience.
Daniel J. Lewis
The audience should not have to create some account somewhere else outside of their podcast app.
Daniel J. Lewis
I think everything they do should be right there inside their podcast app.
Daniel J. Lewis
I even think they shouldn't have to have an account they log into with the podcast app.
Daniel J. Lewis
They could comment anonymously or they wouldn't have to use a third party account like a Facebook or an X in order to log in to identify themselves.
Daniel J. Lewis
They could just inside of the app identify themselves as they choose to, you know, fill in the blank fields of this is my name, this is my email address in order to identify me in the system or anything like that.
Daniel J. Lewis
Kind of like we've had with WordPress comments and other commenting systems on websites for years.
Daniel J. Lewis
We need to make it simple and easy for the audience to leave a comment, to read the comments and to respond to each other.
Daniel J. Lewis
Because the other thing, Dave, I go to Ask the podcast coach on Saturday mornings for is the community?
Daniel J. Lewis
Yeah, it's fun to watch you and Dave live and to chat a little bit with you, but it also just feels like, hey, I'm hanging out with some other podcasting friends because it's often the same couple dozen people or so in there.
Daniel J. Lewis
So it's like, hey, good to see you again.
Daniel J. Lewis
You know, happy Saturday.
Daniel J. Lewis
Haven't seen you since last Saturday.
Daniel J. Lewis
Or how'd that thing go that you tried since last week?
Daniel J. Lewis
Anything like that, where the community is building around the content, and that's when you get the super fans, because you have made a tribe for them.
Daniel J. Lewis
You have made a community for them to communicate with each other.
Daniel J. Lewis
That's why I want Cross App comments to be that number one thing that we finally get working in 2025.
Daniel J. Lewis
I know, and I will accept that I may not like the method or the technology or maybe the name of the tag or anything like that, but at this point, it's kind of like I just want to see it done, because this is something that everyone I've told that this could be a possibility.
Daniel J. Lewis
They've been really excited about it, Both podcast consumers and podcasters.
Daniel J. Lewis
We need to have this done.
Daniel J. Lewis
It's taken so long.
Daniel J. Lewis
I know Adam has bemoaned a couple times saying that basically it seems like the community's given up on it.
Daniel J. Lewis
Whatever it takes.
Daniel J. Lewis
If I need to be the one to spearhead this too, I take that on if I can.
Daniel J. Lewis
But we need something, and I think this both benefits the audience and the podcasters, and it's what I would love to see happen in 2025.
Daniel J. Lewis
If I could have nothing else in podcasting 2.0 developed, or just in the future of the development of podcasting as a whole industry.
Daniel J. Lewis
If nothing else, I want this thing.
Daniel J. Lewis
Cross App comments.
Host
Yeah.
Host
And I'd love to see it rolled out in a way.
Host
And this kind of goes back to the Podcast Standards project instead of like, oh, this app has it.
Host
And then three weeks later, this app has it.
Host
And I'd love if we could somehow coordinate it to where we all launch together.
Host
So all of a sudden it's like, hey, here are seven apps that if you are using these apps, you're going to see these comments, because I think that would create enough fear of missing out.
Host
But like, wait a minute, I'm using Apple Podcasts.
Host
What are these other.
Host
How many?
Host
Well, okay, maybe I'll go try this now.
Host
I'm with you.
Host
I think you then create your tribe.
Host
The only thing you said that Made me scared is people posting anonymously because I know comments on WordPress are many times my.
Host
I forget what I use Akismet, I think to find spam.
Host
And there's always.
Host
And it's marketers ruin everything.
Host
So I could see them just creating a bot to leave comments on podcasts that all point to some website.
Daniel J. Lewis
And I think there's more to be developed there that can help prevent that or to give more power to the podcaster.
Daniel J. Lewis
Like the podcaster could decide, I do not want anonymous comments.
Daniel J. Lewis
Some podcaster could decide, I know my podcast is sensitive.
Daniel J. Lewis
I know that whether it's political, moral, whatever.
Daniel J. Lewis
And so I'm going to be okay with people not identifying themselves because I want this to be a safe space for them to be able to comment anything like that.
Daniel J. Lewis
Yeah.
Daniel J. Lewis
So there are certainly lots of things to figure out, but it's the core that I think is what's most important and as I harp on frequently, is thinking about what will we want this to do later?
Daniel J. Lewis
To make sure that we build a foundation now that we can build on later?
Host
Yeah, anything we build now, we have to kind of go, will this work?
Host
And I know technology changes all the time, but is this going to be, to the best of our knowledge, future proof that it's not going to shoot ourselves in the foot?
Daniel J. Lewis
And speaking of technology changing all the time, podcasting technology changes all the time too.
Daniel J. Lewis
Dave, is there a podcast and maybe even a membership site where people could go to keep up with leveraging the technology and really focusing on making a better podcast?
Daniel J. Lewis
If only there was a school for that.
Daniel J. Lewis
Do you know of a place?
Host
I think there's a place called schoolofpodcasting.com in fact, I think they even have a coupon code.
Host
If you use the coupon code listnr, you can save on either a monthly or yearly subscription.
Host
And one of the members there was talking about how they really liked seeing where they were in the charts on the different charts of Apple and such, because it gave them a sense of things are working or things are not.
Host
And if only there was some place because doggone at Chartable went out of business.
Host
If there was only a place where somebody could not only get voicemails and reviews and everything else, but if they could see the chart positions.
Host
Daniel, do you know of any place that somebody could do that?
Daniel J. Lewis
Well, you know, it's funny you ask podgagement.com this sounds so scripted, but I promise you, listener, this is not scripted.
Daniel J. Lewis
But yeah.
Daniel J. Lewis
Podgagement.com I launched the charts feature about two months ago.
Daniel J. Lewis
And actually I quietly launched a new feature too that I haven't announced yet to my members.
Daniel J. Lewis
But now you can embed ratings and reviews on your site through dynamic lists.
Daniel J. Lewis
Like, you can say, I want all my 4 star and 5 stars reviews to appear on my site, or all the reviews that I tag with this particular tag, or all the reviews from Apple Podcasts or from the United States or whatever.
Daniel J. Lewis
You can make the smart list or embed individual reviews.
Daniel J. Lewis
That's now available too, over@podgagement.com Wayne, I.
Host
Have a question on that.
Host
So if I say automatically show all five star reviews and I get the code and put it on my website, there I've got five star reviews.
Host
Then 20 minutes later another five star review comes in.
Host
Does it automatically then show up on my website?
Daniel J. Lewis
Yeah, there will be some caching involved with it, but yeah, it will automatically show up.
Daniel J. Lewis
Now, if you wanted to do something like you always want only 5 reviews, you can also do that.
Daniel J. Lewis
You can limit it to show only the latest five.
Host
Interesting.
Daniel J. Lewis
Yeah, I had fun building that when that one was fun.
Daniel J. Lewis
Now I want to throw this to you, Dave, for you.
Daniel J. Lewis
What would be that one thing you would want in 2025 if you could have nothing else but this one thing?
Daniel J. Lewis
What would that be?
Host
Yeah, the thing for me when I was talking about it was like, what's podcasting 2.0?
Host
And I'd explain that we're expanding its reach and it's going to have more features and blah, blah, blah, and they would kind of go, that sounds like a good idea.
Host
And then the minute I said, oh, and people can stream Bitcoin to you, so the longer they listen, the more you get paid, that always be like, wait a minute, how do you sign up for that?
Host
That always caught people's attention.
Host
And when we talk about being future proof, we've talked about Albie on this show and I understand why they did what they did.
Host
I'm still not quite sure.
Host
And this is where I've said it many times, I don't know anything about crypto, but I just want that back.
Host
Because right now it's.
Host
I don't want to say stalled.
Host
That's.
Host
That's a little negative, but it's not.
Host
We've taken a step backwards and it doesn't seem.
Host
I know there are plenty of people working on potential fixes.
Host
I know there's now the split box that Steven is put forth and a.
Daniel J. Lewis
Lot of great potential there.
Daniel J. Lewis
I really like the concept.
Host
Yeah, I just remember when I worked at Libsyn if there was ever a time that there was a problem with stats, that place like everybody dropped what they were doing and everybody like stats were fixed.
Host
There was never a stats problem that went longer than five minutes or something like that.
Host
Everybody dropped everything.
Host
And you never lost your stats.
Host
It was usually how they were displayed because there was always this machine collecting them.
Host
But the minute there was a problem with displaying them because we knew that the longer that went on, the more emails support was going to get.
Host
And so when this went down, and this is where I feel selfish, I'm kind of like, hey, can we do kind of like an all hands on getting this streaming thing back up?
Host
Because for me, that was the one that gathered people's attention.
Host
They're like, wait a minute, how hard is it to set that up?
Host
And so if I'm completely honest, when I hear like the godcaster sounds like a great project and paying musicians is a great thing because I'm an old musician, but there is a part of me that wants to be Veruca Salt.
Host
I believe if I remember it was her name, you know, I want streaming payments now, daddy.
Host
And that's where it's great that Dave and Adam, like, I heard about the split box.
Host
I was like, okay, good.
Host
And that's my own fault.
Host
I need to be more involved in Podcast Index social.
Host
I'm sure they're talking about it over there more.
Host
But if all you're waiting on is the podcasting 2.0 show, you have no idea what's going on.
Host
And so it just seems like I remember every week and there was some company that Dave was working with that they had some sort of non disclosure that they couldn't talk about it, but they were working with it.
Host
I forget the name of it.
Host
And then nothing happened.
Host
It was like, oh, so there's.
Host
We're always kind of like, is this going to be the episode where we get back on track?
Host
Where we get back on track.
Host
So for me, it just seemed as much as we would always say, oh, there's so much more than streaming satoshis and podcasting 2.0, and there's transcripts and there's the people tag and the pod roll was great.
Host
And, and that was one of the great things that happened in 2024.
Host
But the, for me, the one just, just from telling people about podcasting 2.0, the one that people would go, wait a minute, hold on, how does that work?
Host
I just saw somebody just posted a poll in Facebook.
Host
I think it was in.
Host
It might have been in podcast Movement.
Host
And they asked about money, and it was like, are you using your podcast to make money for your business?
Host
Are you a hobbyist but wouldn't mind making money or.
Host
And I forget the third one, but the majority of people, and I've always said this, I know there are a lot of people.
Host
I know Todd will say, there are a lot of people just doing it for fun.
Host
And that's true.
Host
I mean, we kind of do this show for fun, and I get to hang out with Daniel J.
Host
Lewis, so to win.
Host
But it's also in the back of my mind, it would be great if this also made money.
Host
There's always that, yeah, it'd be cool.
Host
And if we could make that easy.
Host
Because I have found that when I bring up stuff with money, a lot of times the response is, well, if I could just get it to break even.
Host
If I could just, like, I'm not really trying to make it my second job, but, you know, And I always hear the voice of someone's spouse in their ear going, you spent how much on podcasting?
Host
If I could just get it to break even, I think I'd be okay.
Daniel J. Lewis
You know, there's a funny psychological thing there that for years that I think I spoke incorrectly about.
Daniel J. Lewis
And that was.
Daniel J. Lewis
We often talk about, well, you know, if you get into a hobby, like model trains or baseball cards or any of that, do you really ask people, hey, are you making money with that now?
Daniel J. Lewis
Some people do, yes, for sure.
Daniel J. Lewis
So that aside, though, most people that get into those things, like, I was into baseball cards and coin collecting as a kid, and I just did it for the fun of it and that kind of hobby, the collecting kind of hobby, to just put a label on it.
Daniel J. Lewis
This might not necessarily be the best label of it, but it is a selfish hobby.
Daniel J. Lewis
It is me collecting something for myself or doing a hobby because I enjoy it.
Daniel J. Lewis
Maybe that is shared with a couple other people, too.
Daniel J. Lewis
You know, maybe you like being in this community of people who do this same kind of hobby, but you're all basically doing it for yourselves, and you're talking about the things that you're doing for yourselves, and you're comparing and getting tips and all of that.
Daniel J. Lewis
Podcasting, though, and content creation in general, blogging, videos, wherever.
Daniel J. Lewis
It's a different kind of thing, because it's not always for you, because we are creating something.
Daniel J. Lewis
I know some people don't like that term creating, but we are giving content, we are giving value to other people.
Daniel J. Lewis
It's not just about collecting stuff for us.
Daniel J. Lewis
We are making stuff for other people that we hope other people will enjoy or benefit from in some way.
Daniel J. Lewis
I think that is why we tend to think of podcasting, and I say we, as like the general independent podcaster, we tend to think of podcasting as, how can I make it break even?
Daniel J. Lewis
How can I make some money with this?
Daniel J. Lewis
Because it's not just a, quote, selfish, unquote hobby of.
Daniel J. Lewis
We're just getting stuff for us.
Daniel J. Lewis
We are giving value to others.
Daniel J. Lewis
And I think that feeling is in us realizing we are giving value, and maybe there should be a value exchange.
Daniel J. Lewis
How can we make a value exchange happen?
Host
Yeah, I actually today had a coaching client, and he's had 30 years in sales and just wants to give back.
Host
He's like, sales has been very good to me, and I want to share some of my knowledge.
Host
And I said, well, how long have you been thinking about doing a podcast?
Host
He said, probably five years, but he had imposter syndrome.
Host
And I said, well, once again, when your need to give back or your need to serve is greater than your fear of looking silly, that's when you press record to go, and that's exactly where you are.
Host
And so I think that is part of it.
Host
People do this to give back, and then there comes a time when they realize, hey, podcasting is kind of hard.
Host
If I did get some money back, I just saw a movie about this female Olympic boxer.
Host
It's called the Fire Within.
Host
Amazing story.
Host
I won't spoil the movie, but she got a gold medal and came home, and, like, nothing changed.
Host
She thought she was going to be on a Wheaties box and endorsements and not a lot of endorsements in female boxing back in, like, 2009 or something like that.
Host
And so they were with kind of her manager slash agent, trying to get money, and they were talking about different things.
Host
And he goes, well, is it the recognition?
Host
Is it the money?
Host
Like, what's the problem?
Host
And she screams at him.
Host
She's like, money is recognition.
Host
And I think sometimes, even if it was just a dime, I think people just want to be recognized.
Host
And so when they get that little bit of a bitcoin or buy me a coffee or whatever it is, it's like, hey, somebody likes this enough to buy me a coffee.
Host
And I know Adam hates that, but it's like, it's.
Host
It's, again, it's recognition.
Host
And that's where, again, I want this to be more than a.
Host
A cup of coffee.
Host
I want it to be.
Host
Because we've had people that.
Host
That stream pretty high streams to this show that I was like, oh, that adds up.
Host
Thank you very much.
Host
For anyone who's streaming, and then there are others, but it's.
Host
It's.
Host
Adam always says you can stream what you give.
Host
You know, whatever you have to give.
Host
If it's 2 cents a show or $2,000 a show, whatever you can do.
Host
If you feel like giving back, that's the key.
Host
It was a way for them to give back.
Host
And I.
Host
I hope it's.
Host
It's easy.
Host
I know now with the things, the way things are, again, I have no idea what I'm doing, but I know I went and bought the.
Host
The Albie Hub or whatever it was, but now I have to go to Strike to transfer money from my bank into Strike.
Host
And I think now I know for a while, I think I had to wait 48 hours before I could transfer it into Albi.
Host
I don't think that's the case anymore.
Host
But I just.
Host
Every time I do that, I get confused because first I have to go in and am I on the Bitcoin tab or the money tab?
Host
Okay.
Host
And then it says withdrawal, and then it says there's like, four options.
Host
It should be like, send or receive or whatever.
Host
And I'm always like, wait, which one is the one?
Host
Okay, this one.
Host
And so I've started just transferring more money into Strike so I don't have to do it.
Host
I used to do it once a month, and now be like, let's do three months worth, and then I'll throw that into Albie and it's there to stream, and I have to worry about it.
Host
But every time I do that, especially, like I said, I was doing it once a month.
Host
Well, every month, it'd be like, wait, how did I do this 30 days ago?
Host
So I either need to make myself a cheat sheet or just remember.
Host
But if we could make that easier.
Host
And that's where I.
Host
I need to ask Sam, because, like I said, I used to go into true fans, and I could just fill up my Albi wallet through Trufans, and then Sam would take his cut.
Host
And that's fine.
Host
He made it easy.
Host
He gave me something valuable, let him take his piece, and then it would just fill my Albie wallet.
Host
And then I think I had ca.
Host
Well, I really cast Matic podcast guru podverse.
Host
I think anytime I use those, those were tied into my Albie, my one wallet, and I could stream no matter where I was at.
Host
That part was easy.
Host
So for me, again, I think.
Host
And when.
Host
When you brought this up, it's a good point.
Host
On one hand, it does make the podcaster more excited about it, but also, I don't know that from the listener side, there are people that are like going, man, I wish there was a way I could give this person money.
Host
But I do think, I know.
Host
I feel different because I know when the whole Alby thing kind of blew up, I was like, oh, I'm listening to this person's show now and I'm getting it for free.
Host
And I was like, maybe I'll go out and see if they have a PayPal button or something like that.
Host
Because I was used to giving back to that show.
Host
And that's where I found it interesting.
Host
Because as a listener, it's a different kind of connection when you're giving somebody money for their stuff.
Host
I can't really explain it, but it's just like you're officially part of the team.
Host
It's like you put on their jersey in a way, if it was a sports team, it's like, yeah, I'm part of their, their team now.
Host
And you felt responsible for the stuff coming back to you.
Host
Like, yay.
Host
That last episode, I had a small part in that because of my contributions, just as a way to say thank you.
Host
And sometimes that's all you need to keep going.
Host
It's just to get a little bit of recognition and go, all right, this could be bigger in the future.
Host
I'll just keep doing this for now.
Host
So that's to me, I would love to see that come back.
Host
And it sounds like it is coming back.
Host
I just need to head over to Podcast Index Social and see if there's more news that I may be missing.
Host
And if we can make it easy, that would be awesome.
Daniel J. Lewis
And we've got a deadline.
Daniel J. Lewis
I think that's either already passed by the time this episode comes out or is coming very soon, where the getalbi.com wallets will be no longer available.
Daniel J. Lewis
So you have to move over to something else.
Daniel J. Lewis
And they're pushing people to Albi Hub, which I've got to set up myself soon.
Daniel J. Lewis
I'm going to do the Docker route, run it on one of my servers that I have.
Daniel J. Lewis
But there are two things that could be big disruptors coming that could help or hurt what you're talking about.
Daniel J. Lewis
And this idea.
Daniel J. Lewis
Well, one thing with President Trump being reelected and coming in, and he is very pro crypto and he's spoken a lot about crypto.
Daniel J. Lewis
I mean, bitcoin has doubled in value because of his being re elected and we could see it go even higher.
Daniel J. Lewis
We don't know, but we're not making predictions here.
Daniel J. Lewis
This is not financial advice.
Daniel J. Lewis
Do not only invest what you're willing to lose, all of that stuff.
Daniel J. Lewis
But I do think that certainly his administration will be far more pro crypto.
Daniel J. Lewis
So everything that like Albie has been afraid of before and afraid of is, I think too demeaning.
Daniel J. Lewis
But the stuff they've been concerned about or the laws and some of this stuff, some of that might become moot points in 2025 and beyond, because some of these laws could change that, make a lot of this stuff easier on the companies to be able to provide the services to us that we need to exchange it and send it back and forth and such.
Daniel J. Lewis
So that could be one disruptor there, whatever happens with the incoming administration.
Daniel J. Lewis
The other disruptor is you mentioned PayPal and Stripe and certain services like that.
Daniel J. Lewis
There are two obstacles to using those more in the podcasting space with these microtransactions and like micro microtransactions giving 50 cents or 10 cents or a penny per minute that you listen or anything like that.
Daniel J. Lewis
The two obstacles with these systems are, first of all, there are other systems you have to go elsewhere to use, whether that's PayPal, Stripe, Cash App, any of those things.
Daniel J. Lewis
Fill in the blank.
Daniel J. Lewis
You have to go somewhere else and send it, send the money to the podcaster.
Daniel J. Lewis
It's not built directly into the app.
Daniel J. Lewis
There have been some things here and there, like Marco recently talked about why he removed the PayPal button or the support button from Overcast, and it wasn't because Apple needed him to.
Daniel J. Lewis
It's because he was worried Apple might tell him that he couldn't put out an update because of that feature.
Daniel J. Lewis
And that's disappointing.
Daniel J. Lewis
I'm not going to criticize his moves.
Host
There, but yeah, because it's been there.
Daniel J. Lewis
A while, but it is gone now from Overcast.
Daniel J. Lewis
And there are other apps, though, doing similar things, allowing people to Send payments through PayPal by clicking on a button that's inside the app.
Daniel J. Lewis
I don't know exactly the developer rules that Apple has or that Google has that people might be concerned about there.
Daniel J. Lewis
But anyway, even if you have that button, the other obstacle then.
Daniel J. Lewis
So even if you bring the payment somehow onto the platform and it's something that enough people can use PayPal, Stripe, credit card, Cash app, Venmo, any of those things, whatever it is, even if it was just one thing that enough people used, the other obstacle is the fee structure, because most of these places take a percentage, which is common and totally acceptable to take a percentage but they also take a flat rate fee.
Daniel J. Lewis
It's typically around $0.50 per transaction.
Daniel J. Lewis
So if you get into a space where like even just you were talking about supporting podcasts that you listen to right now, cash flow is still an issue for me.
Daniel J. Lewis
But I would love to be in a place where I could support podcasts that I listen to, even if it's simply $0.50 per episode or $0.10 per episode.
Daniel J. Lewis
Because if I could do that, then maybe other people could do that.
Daniel J. Lewis
And if I could do that easily, then maybe other people could do that easily.
Daniel J. Lewis
The problem is you cannot send 10 cents through PayPal.
Daniel J. Lewis
I don't think they'll even let you try it because the fee is more than the actual payment.
Host
Yeah.
Daniel J. Lewis
So the potential disruptor is what if these places like PayPal and Stripe, especially because Stripe accepting credit card payments and ACH transfers and Apple Pay and Google Pay, what if they change their payment structure so that they no longer have that flat fee?
Daniel J. Lewis
Then you could very easily build something like that into a podcast app to send micro microtransactions without any of the crypto stuff that could be a huge disruptor.
Daniel J. Lewis
They announced something like that.
Daniel J. Lewis
I think they call it being Sherlocked because on the macOS side, there was an app called Sherlock that has been replaced many years ago by Command Spacebar on a Mac, which is the Siri shortcut or the Quick Find toolbar thing.
Daniel J. Lewis
And so Apple every now and then comes out with something that basically kills some business's business model out there.
Daniel J. Lewis
Like Apple now has the journaling app.
Daniel J. Lewis
Well, day one is probably like, oh no.
Daniel J. Lewis
And their business is probably suffering because of that.
Daniel J. Lewis
They're getting Sherlocked in the podcasting space.
Daniel J. Lewis
All of this crypto stuff could get Sherlocked if one of these major developer friendly platforms like stripe or even PayPal suddenly changes their payment structure to support the microtransactions.
Daniel J. Lewis
And I think that could be a.
Host
Good thing, actually, again, if it makes it easy.
Host
And of course, the confusing thing is there is Stripe, which is what a lot of people, and then there is Strike, which with a K, which is what I was talking about earlier with tying my bank to it and that whole nine yards.
Host
Yeah, it's the fees.
Host
If you ever wonder, like, why do we keep going with crypto?
Host
That's why it's the fees that make it pretty much impossible or worthless to do with, you know, for lack of a better phrase, regular money.
Host
So it's, it's tricky, but I would love to see it come.
Host
It's already back.
Host
Like it's you can still use Fountain.
Host
You can still use true fans.
Host
I just, I'm looking for that, that universal place.
Host
I guess the, the one thing that, that I kind of scratch my head with.
Host
Like, okay, we come up with a new way.
Host
Wherever I have my wallet, I think everybody's going to have to have.
Host
Instead of Albie hosting my wallet, I'm gonna have to have my own wallet in something.
Host
And that's, that's like, let's say I go, I know Strike with a K.
Host
Strike sounds like they might have a way to receive crypto.
Host
And I'm like, well, what's going to stop them from having the same thing that happened to Alby?
Host
Like, if I get a bunch of people sending in Boostograms and all of a sudden they have a thousand wallets on their know their system and everybody gets a bunch of Boostograms, what is going to stop what worried Alby from making Strike with a K.
Host
This is going to be their name now.
Host
What's going to stop them from getting worried and going, hey, we're going to draw some attention here.
Host
So that's the part that I don't know if you can future proof that because.
Host
And I said the guy again, who doesn't understand crypto a whole lot.
Host
But I just know, like, unless you host your own wallet, which then goes to, I guess maybe having your own server, I don't know, how do we.
Host
Can you think of anything like how do we avoid that whole situation?
Daniel J. Lewis
Well, I think the way that Strike does it is that they have the resources to be able to adhere to all of the laws and they have certain policies and procedures in place.
Daniel J. Lewis
Like a big thing is called kyc, Know your customer.
Daniel J. Lewis
Where if you're dealing with financial transactions, many of these companies are required to have information about you, like your identity, your address, your Social Security number, all of this stuff.
Daniel J. Lewis
So they know their customer.
Daniel J. Lewis
And some companies just don't want to deal with that.
Daniel J. Lewis
And that's why they will forbid people from the United States from using their tool is because they don't want to have to mess with KYC requirements.
Daniel J. Lewis
That's one thing.
Daniel J. Lewis
There could be other aspects to it because the whole idea of if you are exchanging money, well, then you're in exchange.
Daniel J. Lewis
And exchanges have to meet certain requirements too.
Daniel J. Lewis
An idea I had recently that I wondered, could this be done?
Daniel J. Lewis
It could.
Daniel J. Lewis
Okay, how could it be done or how reasonable is it for this to be done is what if like you were talking about the wallet situation.
Daniel J. Lewis
And yeah, that's a Messy thing.
Daniel J. Lewis
Like, people shouldn't have to think about wallets at all.
Daniel J. Lewis
It should just be, hey, I put money in my podcast app, I send money to a podcaster, podcaster receive money.
Daniel J. Lewis
The end.
Daniel J. Lewis
One way that could be done is, and I don't know the laws around this, but what if we'll say Cast o Matic?
Daniel J. Lewis
So what if in Cast o Matic, I loaded up with $100 in my wallet?
Daniel J. Lewis
In Cast o Matic wallet, in a general sense, but it's still dollars.
Daniel J. Lewis
It's not cryptocurrency, it is dollars that they are holding for me and I can get back whenever I want, minus whatever transaction fees, probably.
Daniel J. Lewis
Then when I want to send that to a podcaster, they then convert it to cryptocurrency, probably Bitcoin on the Lightning Network.
Daniel J. Lewis
They send it over to the podcaster's quote, wallet, unquote, and.
Daniel J. Lewis
And then the podcaster's wallet instantly transfers it back into dollars, so that it's been crypto for only the minute that it took to transfer and only for the sake of the transfer.
Daniel J. Lewis
Then you lose or gain almost no value difference in it.
Daniel J. Lewis
So if I send a dollar, you're going to receive very close to a dollar.
Daniel J. Lewis
You'll receive less, of course, after the fees and such that are natural in the space.
Daniel J. Lewis
But could something like that be done?
Daniel J. Lewis
It's still, yeah, technically they're exchanging currencies, so I don't know the legality of that, but that's one idea that could be done with it.
Daniel J. Lewis
The other thing, though, actually maybe a third disruptor in this.
Daniel J. Lewis
Look at what Apple did with Patreon, the patreon app in 2024, where they were saying that anyone who supports someone through Patreon, through the Patreon app on iPhone, if that's where they created their payment, Apple wants a cut, they want their 30%.
Daniel J. Lewis
That's going to happen to podcast apps too.
Daniel J. Lewis
If they accept a payment, Apple is going to at some point probably say, hey, we need 30%.
Daniel J. Lewis
So that could be a horrible disruptor there.
Daniel J. Lewis
Now, maybe the loophole to that is, is Patreon accepts the payments on behalf of the creators and then sends those payments minus their fees to the creators.
Daniel J. Lewis
So Patreon is receiving the money, but in the podcast apps, maybe it could be designed where the money goes directly to the creator and therefore Apple doesn't get their cut.
Daniel J. Lewis
Like you look at any of These apps, Strike, PayPal, Venmo, Cash App, all of these things that do work on Apple devices and Android devices and other Things you send money directly to someone or receive money directly from someone, and there are no fees from Apple.
Daniel J. Lewis
And Apple is totally okay with that.
Daniel J. Lewis
I think that's because it's a direct person to person transfer of money, and that's why Apple doesn't need their fees.
Daniel J. Lewis
But if it's like a company taking lots of payments, like Patreon's case, that's where Apple wants their cut.
Daniel J. Lewis
So that could be a disruptor too.
Host
Yeah, kind of like in the Albi situation, it wasn't really much of a concern until it started taking off.
Host
And that's when they're like.
Host
And so it might be a similar situation where Apple's not worried about it now until they start noticing that.
Host
Wait a minute, there's a whole bunch of people clicking that boostogram button.
Host
What's going on with that?
Host
Yeah, that's true.
Host
I hadn't thought about that.
Daniel J. Lewis
And there's for sure the reward aspect for the podcaster, even if it's just pennies.
Daniel J. Lewis
And the more accessible it is, I think the more people that will do it as they realize, hey, I can give only 5 cents an episode automatically.
Daniel J. Lewis
Sure, I can afford 5 cents.
Daniel J. Lewis
But you look at, like, what Adam's talked about with the booster grand ball that he did the live thing recently, and some of these people that have been featured on Wave Lake and such, how they've gotten so excited at the money they've received, not because it's a huge amount, but because it is proportionally so much higher than they're getting from Spotify and Apple Music and Pandora and all of those typical streaming places.
Daniel J. Lewis
And like you were saying, it's that fan aspect too, that the people are supporting the musicians directly and that makes the people get more excited and feel more part of it.
Daniel J. Lewis
It's kind of this funny cycle.
Daniel J. Lewis
I talk about this a lot with people who use podgagement is that once you get someone into an engagement cycle, then it starts to.
Daniel J. Lewis
They just get into the circular cycle and it starts to get them exponentially more engaged.
Daniel J. Lewis
Because once they engage, they're going to engage more deeply.
Daniel J. Lewis
And then when they engage more deeply, they'll engage more deeply and more and more deeply like that.
Daniel J. Lewis
So once someone pays and gives some money directly, they'll realize, hey, this is pretty cool.
Daniel J. Lewis
Yeah, I'm a part of this.
Daniel J. Lewis
I want to buy something again.
Daniel J. Lewis
I want to support them again.
Host
Absolutely.
Host
Yep.
Host
I heard that from Adam and he said, again, a lot of people are just like, this is recognition that what I created has value.
Host
And it's it's in a way, I was kind of feel like, well, it has value even if somebody doesn't recognize it.
Host
It's kind of if the tree falls in the woods kind of thing.
Host
Like, if you make a great song and nobody hears it, does that mean the song wasn't any good?
Host
No, it just means nobody heard it.
Host
But again, that's why I want to see it work.
Host
I want to make it easy and go there and, you know, if you think about just the two things we talked about, they're both ways are interacting with the podcaster, cross app comments, building that tribe.
Host
And then some of those people might want to click the other button that says boost.
Host
And both ways the podcaster is getting direct feedback.
Host
And then they can turn that around to make a better show if they can, you know, somehow enhance it.
Host
And when you get the audience involved, I still get giddy when I hear somebody.
Host
I forget what I was listening to.
Host
Matthew Passi does a show about podcasting tech, and Sarah St John was on and she said he asked him, like, what podcast do you listen to?
Host
And she said, I listen to podcasts about podcasting.
Host
So.
Host
Well, you know, Dave Jackson, everybody knows that.
Host
And instantly I was.
Host
I got all giddy, like somebody said my name.
Host
And so anytime a audience member does something, it's like, hey, I heard you.
Host
I've listened to you.
Host
I like that.
Host
Whatever it is, you always feel like it's that recognition that makes you all giddy, giddy.
Daniel J. Lewis
I say, what if something had to be sacrificed in order to make the payments work?
Daniel J. Lewis
Like the streaming Satoshi's idea of streaming based on how long you listen.
Daniel J. Lewis
What if that had to be sacrificed?
Host
I mean, that's a neat feature because it was another kind of hack way to figure out how far people listened.
Host
Because every minute you'd see it's, you know, Bob Jones, Bob Jones, Bob Jones.
Host
Then at the 23 minute mark, all of a sudden, Bob Jones is no longer contributing.
Host
You're like, oh, Bob dropped off.
Host
What happened at the 23 minute mark?
Host
But I also know to me, do we need that every, you know, minute representation?
Host
So if that was something they like, man, that's a lot of taxation on the, I don't know, the app resources or whatever the technology is.
Host
If it was something where every five minutes or maybe when somebody press stop, they press play, it kind of puts them in a little pile.
Host
And then the minute somebody hits pause or stop, the app somehow then goes, oh, well, they accumulated 37 SATs.
Host
Send it over to Dave.
Host
I think I'd be perfectly fine with that.
Daniel J. Lewis
Like, we've got streaming satoshis that have come in from Randy Black and Brian Insminer and Sam Sethi for the future of podcasting.
Daniel J. Lewis
Especially, like, we've both complained to each other about the way some of these websites display this, where it's just streaming sat after one after another.
Daniel J. Lewis
To see just a whole page of.
Daniel J. Lewis
Here are all of these streaming sats from one person.
Daniel J. Lewis
Because it's that minute by minute by minute.
Host
Yeah, they need a filter on that somehow or something to give us a better idea of what we're looking at.
Daniel J. Lewis
Dwev Also to give him a shout out.
Daniel J. Lewis
Steve Webb.
Host
Yeah, the original godcaster Steve Webb.
Daniel J. Lewis
Nicholas B58.
Host
Not to be confused with Nicholas B57.
Daniel J. Lewis
Yeah, there was Nicholas B.
Daniel J. Lewis
57.
Daniel J. Lewis
There were that many other Nicholas B's, so he had to be number 58.
Host
And 57's a jerk.
Host
58's great.
Host
So, yes, thank you to everyone who's been sending in the satoshis in.
Host
However, whatever system you're using, if they're still coming in, we appreciate that.
Daniel J. Lewis
You know, as long as we're talking about it, let's read some booster grams.
Daniel J. Lewis
I've got them in front.
Daniel J. Lewis
Randy Black said, I love the cheap plugs for your own products.
Daniel J. Lewis
Lol.
Daniel J. Lewis
I jest.
Daniel J. Lewis
Love you guys.
Daniel J. Lewis
Another great and informative episode.
Daniel J. Lewis
A thousand SATs from Randy Black.
Daniel J. Lewis
Thank you, Randy.
Host
Were there plugs in this show?
Host
I don't remember plugs.
Host
Do you remember plugs?
Host
I don't.
Host
Maybe.
Daniel J. Lewis
Maybe there was a plug for schoolofpodcasting.com maybe.
Host
I thought I might have heard one for podgagement, but I don't know.
Host
I thought that was just a coincidence.
Daniel J. Lewis
I don't know, maybe people should go to those websites to find out if there's a plug.
Daniel J. Lewis
And Brian Insprener sent 500 SATs saying Dave is a silent knight.
Daniel J. Lewis
That's Knight with a K.
Daniel J. Lewis
Yes.
Daniel J. Lewis
And Brian Insprener also sent A Star Trek Boost 1701 SATS saying true fan zap from looking at splits, filling a wallet and CDNs.
Daniel J. Lewis
Love the buzzwords.
Daniel J. Lewis
Thank you so much for those streaming sats.
Host
Do you know what A Silent Night is?
Daniel J. Lewis
No.
Host
Actually, A Silent Night is I've been donating 1111 to no Agenda for months, for decades, to the point where I've now given them at least a thousand dollars.
Daniel J. Lewis
Oh, that makes sense.
Host
And so I'm a silent night.
Host
I've never claimed my.
Host
I've never got my ring it's always one of Those things, I'm like, I'll send them a something to make me an associate producer and claim my knight, who I just can't figure out what I want.
Host
My Sir Dave, Dean of Podcasting.
Daniel J. Lewis
I'm like, what are you cannot be the Knight of podcasting 2.0.
Daniel J. Lewis
That's me.
Daniel J. Lewis
That's my title.
Host
Yeah.
Host
I was going to be Sir Lauren of Beef because my mom loved that pun in a Bugs Bunny.
Host
It's like, I am Sir Lauren of Beef.
Host
I think it was Daffy Duck and somebody took it.
Host
I was like, oh, they took my surname.
Host
So I have to.
Host
And to me, I'm like, dean of Podcasting sounds way too cheesy.
Host
So if I come up with a good surname, I will come out of the shadows.
Daniel J. Lewis
You might have one right there.
Daniel J. Lewis
You could be surname of podcasting.
Host
There you go.
Host
Maybe.
Host
Anybody ever send us boosts over there, Daniel?
Host
Or are we.
Daniel J. Lewis
That was it for now.
Daniel J. Lewis
Thank you so much for those booster grams, the streaming satoshis.
Daniel J. Lewis
I think I mentioned everyone that's done it since our last episode and some of those streamings that don't always come in, we don't get the email notifications for the streaming sats.
Daniel J. Lewis
So that's why sometimes we don't mention those as frequently as the booster grams that we receive.
Daniel J. Lewis
But thank you so much for that support.
Daniel J. Lewis
It means a lot.
Daniel J. Lewis
Dave and I split it.
Daniel J. Lewis
Dave gets the majority of it and we split those satoshis.
Daniel J. Lewis
And it is very much appreciated.
Host
When I get 51%, I think that's the majority.
Host
I get them.
Host
I was like, wait a minute, what?
Host
But yeah, yeah, we do deeply appreciate that.
Host
Every little helps.
Host
And, you know, for more information, check us out@futureofpodcasting.net I think that's going to be it for episode 55 of the Future of Podcasting.
Host
If you haven't followed the show yet, go to futureofpodcasting.net follow.
Daniel J. Lewis
And if you're listening to this on the way down to PodFest in Orlando, stop by the PodPage booth to see Dave Jackson and stop by the PodGagement booth to see me.
Host
Yeah, absolutely.
Host
I think that's it.
Daniel J. Lewis
Keep boosting and keep podcasting.