What Activity Streams Could Enable in Podcasting

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What activity streams could enable in podcasting? Strap in because this is

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a long episode, and we get deep in the technical weeds.

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Get your geek on because we've kicked out Dave Jackson for this episode, and

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this could end up being a little bit nerdy. It's just me, Daniel j

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Lewis with a special guest, Sam Sethi from truefans.fm,

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formerly known as Pod Fans. And we are going to talk about something

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that has some really awesome potential for

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podcasting 2.0 and several other cool things as well

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as siloed into specific apps, especially like what you're going to learn

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that Sam has been able to do with True Fans. So, Sam,

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here's my first question. Activity stream Mhmm.

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And activity pub. Mhmm. What is the difference?

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Very simple. Thanks. Good question. Okay. So a little bit

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of a walk down memory lane.

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RSS dot 2 dot o, Dave Weiner froze

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it and gave it over to Harvard. So the IETF created

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this thing called the Atom Feed which was a competitor

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to RSS. And the Atom Feed's

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core function was the extensibility that it had within

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it. And as we now know, you

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know, Daniel, there's a name space extensibility to

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RSS as well, so it was very odd. But in the day, there was a

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battle between RSS and Atom, and I'd have no

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idea. Betamax versus VHS. No idea what the difference is. Or

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or for the more modern kids, Blu ray versus HD Thank you very

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much. Or DVD HD. What was it? HD DVD. Yeah. That's where it

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was. Bring that one up to date. Now what happened was

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Atom morphed into something called the activity stream, and what is an

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activity stream? So a couple of very clever people,

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Christmas Cena, Jason Snell, and Evan

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Prodimo said, look. Wouldn't it be cool with social

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networks where you could basically track the activity of

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people into an XML file and that was a structured piece

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of data. And so it started off with a very simple structure. It was

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called active verb object. Actor

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Daniel played object podcast. So the name of the

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podcast, future podcasting. And you can record that as an entry.

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That's very simple. And there were more verbs that you could use. So

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you can extend those verbs to be follow, like,

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share, whatever. And what that gave you was a nice

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structured piece of data, XML based, that

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wasn't a set of activities that were carried out by the

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chapters, in this case, you. And I could

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then read that file and I could then pass it. I could do other things

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with it. So I like to liken it to a user

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generated RSS feed. That's the best way I like to talk about

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it. Now activity pub is the

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protocol over which you deliver activity stream. So

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think of TCP IP and then RSS is

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the data and TCP IP is the transfer protocol. So in the

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same way, you have an activity stream and you then

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send it to over an activity pub protocol

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to a client like Mastodon or whatever. And

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so in that client, they can then read the activity stream

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and then pass it out and then display whatever's in there. So a

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good example is Dave Jones has created something called the

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activity bridge. I don't know if you've seen this yet. So

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you can go into podcast index, look up in

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our, feed or a podcast. Sorry. It has a

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unique ID number. You put that ID number with

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atap.podcastindex, and boom, it

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suddenly appears in your Mastodon as the podcast, and you can follow

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it. And so what you've got is the activity stream is

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a set of, data based on users'

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activity in a social network. In this case, it could be Truefans.

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It could be or another third party client. It could be, you know, if if

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Twitter supported it, you could have it in there as well. And then

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you deliver that over the activity pub to a activity

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pub client such as Bastogon. That's it.

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So trying to simplify this as well as understand it.

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Because some of this stuff I'm learning too along with our audience and also

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wanting to Yeah. Make some of this a little more plain English. So

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activity stream is basically how the data is stored. Yep. Is

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that correct? And then activity pub is how it's

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delivered. Correct. Okay. You should've said you should've done this for

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me. It was much easier. No. See,

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that simple understanding came from the

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complex explanation. Right. Thank you. So

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what is some of the potential with this? First, let's

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jump to what you're doing with activity stream on truefans.fm.

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Yeah. So we built Truefans, with activity

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streams at the core of it. So we said that as a

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user, I can log in, and we will then give you your

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personal activity stream of all the things you do while using

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Truefence. So I could go in, and I can see how many,

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episodes I've played, how many people I've followed, how many

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times I've created a clip, how many times I've boosted, how many times I've

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zapped. So we've created 30 verbs within

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Truefans that enable us to track the activity of

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all users. Now what we wanted to do and have done is make

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sure that that activity is private if the user wants

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it to be. So you can go into the user settings and say hide activity

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and the only person who will see that activity is you, the

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user. Or you can say, actually, I wanna make everything

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public. No problem. And anyone can then go to your profile and see

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what activity you've done or converse the 3rd way, which I think is

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the best way is we've made all the 30 verbs available. So you just tick

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the ones that you want public, and the ones you want private are then hidden.

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And see, I might say, I just want to show my plays and boost, I

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don't wanna show the show to people I follow or any other

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activity I make. So, yes, so we create the activity

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stream for each user. And because we've got a social

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network element, I can follow Daniel, Value can follow me.

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Because we have that model, you can then go and see my profile and see

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my activity. And therefore, you might say, oh, what

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what was Sam listening to yesterday? Or what did he

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boost just now? Or what did he clip? And,

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again, that might be a signal for you to go and

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listen to a podcast or listen to a clip because you can

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see my activity.

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Okay. So where I want to switch this

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around a little bit is when we're thinking about the future of podcasting.

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And we've got a lot of things in development with podcasting

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2.0. And my impression, the more I

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understand activity stream, the more it seems

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like this could be used for a

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lot of things inside of podcasting 2 point o. Like, I'm

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thinking years ago, it feels like now, I

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proposed a webhook idea where podcast apps

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could report back play information to some

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central server or something. And that's how we could then get

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the playback and completion rates from an app, and an app

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developer could report that kind of information back. Can can

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activity stream do that kind of thing? Yeah. So what

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we've done is, apart from the verbs, we've also attached

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things like time listened, percent completed, and value paid.

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So if you play the future of podcasting, I might

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have time listened 88 let's say, 28

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minutes, which might be 60% of the show and I

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gave you 10,000 cents. Right? All of that's interesting

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data metric as well that gets attached to your activity stream.

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What we're missing right now is the ability to centrally

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aggregate all of that into a single point. So the

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next step for Truefans is that we're gonna allow users

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on Truefans to publish their activity stream to an

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activity pub client. So you might say, I want to

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publish, all the things I play automatically. Or anytime

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I make a a clip, just let me have the option to click it and

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then share it on an activity pub client in the fediverse.

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So that's a good second step to what we wanna

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do. I aggregate all my activity and then I share the bits I

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want with my social network, and that's good. And then that's a

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signal to my social network maybe to come and listen to another podcast or

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whatever. But the core bot part, and and I think the

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holy grail of podcasting is cross app comments. The idea of being

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able to make a comment in one app and then have a comment in

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another app, and then they synchronize over a single

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episode, let's say. So the way to do that would be I

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would create an activity stream in Truefans, somebody want to create 1 in Podverse,

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someone creates 1 in Fountain. Because we've got this

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unique GUID, this, and the feed item, which is

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a a unique identifier for a podcast and an

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episode, we could aggregate everything around that

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single core ID ID. And so

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Fountain would publish the activity stream for Daniel

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from fountain with your permission. And then if you use true

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funds again, that would happen. So you could actually aggregate all of

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your activity from any apps you use

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or it might be Dave

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the apps could just listen to updates from the central

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database repository and pull down the additional

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comment or pull down additional data. It doesn't have to be comments.

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It could be, for example, on fountain, you followed Adam,

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and then, we don't need you to follow

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Adam again on Truefence. Why would you want to replicate that social

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graph? So the point is we would see that activity and

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then we could replicate that activity in all the other apps as well. So when

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you went into the alternative app, guess what? You're

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following Adam. So when we're

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talking about this, especially, like, with the cross app comments because

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that's the like you said, that is the holy grail. That is something that I

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wish we had solved by now. And it feels like it's not

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so much a data storage issue, but

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an interoperability and a, both the

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whole cross app aspect of this. Because what I've

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seen that's frustrated me so far, and

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before, maybe as recent as before a month

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ago, I didn't know there was a difference between ActivityStream and

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ActivityPub because every time people were talking about ActivityPub,

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I thought Mastodon. But Mastodon is just an

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Activity Pub client. Yes. Right? Think of Activity Pub and

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Nosta. The same they're a protocol. That's all. Okay.

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Well and I know nothing about nosta either. But,

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so these are protocols to be able to access the activity

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pub. So, like, when I think about cross app commons

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Mhmm. One of the frustrations I faced is the understanding of just how,

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like, Mastodon works. How there is no one central server,

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but these multiple instances or multiple servers

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can connect with each other. And so

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you can follow people who are on a different server.

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Mhmm. And you can bring in

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content from another server into your own server. Yep.

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Where I see some complications with this,

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performance is a big thing that I'm worried about. Because the first time

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I saw cross app comments using activity pub implemented,

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it was dead slow Yeah. To load just a single episodes

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comment stream. And there were not a lot of comments. There were only

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under a dozen, I think. How do we solve

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that with what we're talking about here? Or is that Let's take

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a step back. Right? You use email. I use email. Right? You don't need to

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know the underlying structure of the email, whether it's pop 3, IMAP 4,

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whatever. Right? I just need to know you're danieljlewis@someserver.com

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somewhere. And conversely, you just need to know mine. Right? You click a

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button, the email goes off and you don't think about it twice.

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That's a federated network. Right? That is a federated network

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of email And we we are used to that and we know it

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works and, you know, that's it. It has its own,

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foibles. Sometimes email doesn't get go out, but fundamentally, it

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works 99.999 percent of the time.

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The social network, Mastodon, Plex,

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and all the others are federated servers of,

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Activity Pub. And again, you have an address. I have,

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Sam Sethi at Sam Sethi at podcast index dot

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social. Right? That's my Mastodon address. And

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if you wanna follow me, that's how you find me. You go to it it

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basically finds that address like you would an email, and then

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you just type something out to that address and boom, it appears in

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my inbox. And in fact, activity pub

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clients are fundamentally an inbox and outbox. That's all they

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are. Very, very simple. Your inbox is the stream of information

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you're reading, and your outbox is the messages you write that appear in

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somebody else's inbox. That is as fundamentally simple just like

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email. And that's why I think it will work and it will scale because we

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know that we can scale email that's gone and done for 20

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plus years. And what we're seeing with the Fediverse is

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more developers are putting time and energy into it and

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fixing some of those bugs and those slowness and those issues. So I

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think, you know, again, give it give it another year. I think all of that's

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gone. So your your problem around scalability and your problem

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about speed, I think, are just short term road bumps on

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the road to where we need to get to. Okay.

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Because as I understand it, like, even with the metaphor

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of an email inbox, when

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I get my email in my mail app, it is downloading

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the messages and I've got that on my computer there.

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You don't if you send me an email, you don't have access to all of

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my emails. I don't have access to all of yours. We are

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sending one thing directly to the other JSON,

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but not making that whole conversation thread visible to a third

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party. Mhmm. Whereas cross app comments, we

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want it all to be visible to everyone else.

242
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So, what it seems like and please correct me if

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I'm wrong here. I hope I'm wrong. What it seems like the way

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that it has to work now is that there is a

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a root post that is basically the episode post.

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Is this is episode 5, and that's the thing that

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everyone is commenting on that or replying

248
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to each other. But when they're replying to each other, there's still the it's

249
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just a downward tree or a cascading of

250
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all of these connections and replies and relationships across each other.

251
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It seems like every one of those individual messages

252
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could potentially be on a different server.

253
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Is that true? Yep. It could be on a potential different server. It could be

254
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a federated index that we're looking at. Again So that's

255
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the nightmare. Yeah. We haven't, to be honest with you, Daniel, this

256
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last part of the leg, the step 3 hasn't been

257
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really finished. I was I was interviewing Evan Prodimo.

258
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I was talking about cross app comments and there is a server based

259
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capability where you can publish your activity streams to, but it's not

260
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quite, you know, fully baked out. And so I think

261
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there's still another step. So I think what I've been trying

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to do is say to the community, look. Here's a w

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three c open standard. This is not some

264
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something. I I asked actually, I asked

265
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the Mastodon group, you know, all of the guys you you're involved in

266
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it as well. I put out a message. What does TLV

267
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record stand for and who created it? Oh, my god. It

268
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wasn't very clear. And I think Dave Jones eventually said it was somebody from Sphinx

269
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who created it many years ago. And then Steven Bell said, well,

270
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actually, the TLV record which is this,

271
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payment record of what's been paid on a podcast is

272
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an activity stream. But it's a proprietary activity stream

273
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devised by somebody that we don't really know anymore who's not involved in the community.

274
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It's got 4 verbs in it which is stream, boost,

275
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auto, and reply. That's the 4 verbs.

276
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And within those 4 verbs, the stream verb, for example, you

277
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will put payments, you will put sender, you'll put receiver, you'll

278
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put, podcast episode, all sorts of data will go into

279
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that one bit of information. But that's just an

280
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activity stream, but we've created this TLV record

281
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activity stream fundamentally by

282
00:17:56,185 --> 00:17:59,805
by by chance, I think. What's happened was somebody started off this idea,

283
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,960
and I then think Dave Jones created helipad for Adam to be

284
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able to read them. And then we've sort of gone and followed this

285
00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,934
whole concept of the TLV record, but

286
00:18:10,934 --> 00:18:14,775
nobody's actually really understanding how we expand it, how we

287
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extend it, and what's the value of it. And and cross out

288
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comments won't come from the TLV record. So Adam is doing

289
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something that I find, a little frustrating.

290
00:18:26,095 --> 00:18:29,855
The TLV record which is a, basically, it's

291
00:18:29,855 --> 00:18:33,455
the whenever you listen to a podcast and you make a payment, a stream, or

292
00:18:33,455 --> 00:18:37,300
a boost, it creates a like a receipt. Okay? Think of it as like

293
00:18:37,360 --> 00:18:40,480
a receipt and telling you Sure. What you've paid and who you paid it to.

294
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:44,325
Right? That's private to you and the person who

295
00:18:44,325 --> 00:18:47,305
receives it. So if you paid me,

296
00:18:47,925 --> 00:18:51,740
a a 1,000 boost a 1,000 sat as a boost, I receive that. But

297
00:18:51,740 --> 00:18:55,500
if I then decide to put James Cridland in the split, James now sees

298
00:18:55,500 --> 00:18:59,260
that TLV record. Yeah. If I put 15 people in the split, all

299
00:18:59,260 --> 00:19:03,005
15 people will see the split. And that is right there, that's

300
00:19:03,005 --> 00:19:06,705
a, I've raised this concern as well. That is a major privacy

301
00:19:06,765 --> 00:19:10,470
concern because the person listening may

302
00:19:10,470 --> 00:19:14,070
not know who all is going to receive this message. And some

303
00:19:14,070 --> 00:19:17,685
people in a boostagram, they may say upfront, please don't share

304
00:19:17,685 --> 00:19:21,445
this on the podcast, but I wanna send you this gift because I was gonna

305
00:19:21,445 --> 00:19:25,120
commit suicide last night, but I listened to your episode, and it stopped me

306
00:19:25,120 --> 00:19:28,880
from pulling the trigger, and that's why I'm sending you this they do not want

307
00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:32,320
the world to know that message. And now, everyone in the splits will get to

308
00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:36,125
know that message. Right. And there could be even

309
00:19:36,125 --> 00:19:39,965
worse scenarios than that. So that does

310
00:19:39,965 --> 00:19:43,740
create a problem. One of the things I would love to see is

311
00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:48,040
this activity stream idea be used for more

312
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,475
than cross op comments. And, we can get back to cross op comments. But, like,

313
00:19:51,475 --> 00:19:55,175
for the boostograms, which you and I both see boostograms

314
00:19:55,235 --> 00:19:58,535
as basically comments With payments. Yeah. That's it. Yeah.

315
00:19:58,835 --> 00:20:02,670
So we could write boostergrams to

316
00:20:02,670 --> 00:20:06,270
the activity stream as well, or has that have that as some

317
00:20:06,270 --> 00:20:09,855
kind of option. We do that now anyway. On.

318
00:20:09,855 --> 00:20:13,235
True fans are doing that? Okay. Yeah. And

319
00:20:13,615 --> 00:20:17,155
then the maybe that could even be an an option

320
00:20:17,215 --> 00:20:21,040
to the person sending the boostagram where there is that toggle that

321
00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:24,800
is, like, make this public. And if they say yes, then it goes into

322
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:27,965
the And, again, we have done that. So in your user settings,

323
00:20:28,424 --> 00:20:32,184
you choose which verbs you wanna meet private and fit

324
00:20:32,184 --> 00:20:35,960
which verbs are public, and that is it. Nobody you know,

325
00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:39,240
if you want everything to be private, you set it to private and no one

326
00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:43,000
sees your activity. Set it to fully public and everyone sees

327
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,845
it or set that intermediary. I choose the verbs I want to be

328
00:20:46,845 --> 00:20:50,625
public. Now we talk about cross app comments, but what about cross app clips?

329
00:20:51,020 --> 00:20:54,700
Right? Yeah. Or, you know, we we've

330
00:20:54,700 --> 00:20:58,460
got other things that we've got planned that would allow you to

331
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have interoperability between apps. So

332
00:21:02,515 --> 00:21:06,115
I think what I'm trying to do and I'm I I I don't know if

333
00:21:06,115 --> 00:21:09,560
I'm failing, but I'm I'm still knocking this door very

334
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:13,320
hard, is saying to people, look. We are very good

335
00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:17,135
as a community of saying RSS is the, you know, the truth

336
00:21:17,195 --> 00:21:21,035
of feed a feed of truth. Right? Right? It's an XML structure piece of data,

337
00:21:21,035 --> 00:21:24,770
and we're adding tags into it. Think of those tags as verbs.

338
00:21:24,770 --> 00:21:28,370
They're just the same wording. Right? We're just using a different word

339
00:21:28,370 --> 00:21:32,045
in RSS, but they are just verbs. Right? So the person

340
00:21:32,045 --> 00:21:35,485
tag, the transcript tag, they're verbs in the

341
00:21:35,485 --> 00:21:39,270
RSS feed. And then we know what we do with them. In the

342
00:21:39,270 --> 00:21:42,950
same way with a user generated feed, the activity stream, we

343
00:21:42,950 --> 00:21:46,630
just have verbs and we can extend those verbs to as many

344
00:21:46,630 --> 00:21:50,034
verbs we want. You know, things that we haven't thought about now we can add

345
00:21:50,034 --> 00:21:53,554
as a new verb. And so, what I'm trying to say is,

346
00:21:53,794 --> 00:21:57,090
the top end we've got RSS with a a structured piece of data. At the

347
00:21:57,090 --> 00:22:00,769
bottom, we've got activity team with a structured piece of data. And that our

348
00:22:00,769 --> 00:22:04,529
activity stream just in its basic format as I said earlier, can you can

349
00:22:04,529 --> 00:22:08,325
just say, I just wanna publish it to my Mastodon client. And so everyone can

350
00:22:08,325 --> 00:22:12,165
see who's in my social network, who follows me what I'm doing. And

351
00:22:12,165 --> 00:22:15,990
that's one simple way of sharing. And then the other one, as

352
00:22:15,990 --> 00:22:19,830
I said, is to aggregate it around an episode. And then, yes,

353
00:22:19,830 --> 00:22:22,630
maybe we start with cross that comments, but then we end up with cross that

354
00:22:22,630 --> 00:22:26,165
clips. Maybe we end up with other things that we haven't developed

355
00:22:26,165 --> 00:22:29,525
yet that can be interoperable between apps, but you've got

356
00:22:29,525 --> 00:22:32,905
structured data which means it's possible. It's totally

357
00:22:32,965 --> 00:22:36,270
possible. I know that some of the complication

358
00:22:36,410 --> 00:22:40,170
with building things in the modern web and with podcasting 2.0

359
00:22:40,170 --> 00:22:43,794
is we've got in podcasting, we have a combination

360
00:22:43,934 --> 00:22:47,235
of centralized and decentralized. The

361
00:22:47,774 --> 00:22:51,550
the data for a podcast, from a podcast Mhmm. The podcast

362
00:22:51,550 --> 00:22:55,310
itself is centralized. The consumption is

363
00:22:55,310 --> 00:22:59,125
decentralized. So like the RSS feed, there is 1 or

364
00:22:59,125 --> 00:23:02,885
there should be only 1 RSS feed Yes. For a podcast. There should

365
00:23:02,885 --> 00:23:06,440
not be hundreds of feeds and mirrors and all of these

366
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:10,200
proxies you have to worry about. There is 1. Mhmm. So that's centralized. There

367
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,955
are other aspects of podcasting. Like, there is one media file. Yes,

368
00:23:14,015 --> 00:23:17,715
it does get syndicated across a CDN or a content distribution

369
00:23:17,855 --> 00:23:21,530
network. But still, that's super easy for the publisher when they upload a new

370
00:23:21,530 --> 00:23:25,210
file or replace it that then all of that gets flushed out and then refreshed

371
00:23:25,210 --> 00:23:28,975
with a new file. It's still centralized. The podcaster themselves

372
00:23:28,975 --> 00:23:32,675
is in control. The decentralized asset aspect

373
00:23:32,735 --> 00:23:36,580
is the consumption of all of JSON, And

374
00:23:36,580 --> 00:23:40,020
that's where we have hundreds of apps that people can use to

375
00:23:40,020 --> 00:23:43,860
consume centralized information but consume it

376
00:23:43,860 --> 00:23:47,465
in a decentralized way. So looking at activity

377
00:23:47,465 --> 00:23:51,065
stream, one of the ways that I could see this working out for cross hop

378
00:23:51,065 --> 00:23:54,765
comments, for a lot of things, for the webhook or,

379
00:23:55,429 --> 00:23:59,030
John Spurlock came along and also proposed a similar idea calling it the events

380
00:23:59,030 --> 00:24:02,789
tag. Same thing. Webhook events. Same thing. But all of this could go

381
00:24:02,789 --> 00:24:06,585
into a central activity stream that

382
00:24:06,585 --> 00:24:10,425
the podcaster controls or owns in some way, whether that's through

383
00:24:10,425 --> 00:24:14,130
their podcast hosting provider, some service that they run themselves

384
00:24:14,130 --> 00:24:17,750
or pay for, whatever. But it's a centralized service, centralized

385
00:24:17,890 --> 00:24:21,495
location. And then all of these other

386
00:24:21,875 --> 00:24:25,235
activity pub clients built into apps or

387
00:24:25,235 --> 00:24:28,835
other, systems can read

388
00:24:28,835 --> 00:24:30,760
that centralized information.

389
00:24:33,140 --> 00:24:36,820
And maybe the solution to this performance problem is that whatever is

390
00:24:36,820 --> 00:24:40,044
hosting that centralized activity stream

391
00:24:40,825 --> 00:24:44,585
is responsible to go out and find everything that

392
00:24:44,585 --> 00:24:48,184
was federated, that was networked with it and sent back into

393
00:24:48,184 --> 00:24:50,450
it, And then pull that in

394
00:24:51,950 --> 00:24:55,490
whenever one of those apps, like, sends that ping into

395
00:24:55,895 --> 00:24:59,735
that activity streams inbox. And please correct me if

396
00:24:59,735 --> 00:25:03,575
I'm, like, saying something incorrectly. I'm along the way here, but What you've got

397
00:25:03,575 --> 00:25:07,030
to think of is, if I write a boost in

398
00:25:07,030 --> 00:25:10,390
Truefans, in my activity stream, that's now my

399
00:25:10,390 --> 00:25:13,610
outbox. Okay? And then I publish it.

400
00:25:14,015 --> 00:25:17,855
That gets published, then we where it get published to today

401
00:25:17,855 --> 00:25:21,375
is the question. Right? That's what we're trying to figure out that part, that that

402
00:25:21,375 --> 00:25:24,530
last part. But wherever that gets published to,

403
00:25:24,910 --> 00:25:28,450
fountain will then have an inbox, which is the

404
00:25:28,990 --> 00:25:32,815
boost section of that episode where that

405
00:25:32,815 --> 00:25:36,255
will then appear as a message into that

406
00:25:36,255 --> 00:25:39,715
section. So my boost that I wrote in True Fans gets published.

407
00:25:40,170 --> 00:25:43,930
Fountain listens for that episode, and there's a new piece

408
00:25:43,930 --> 00:25:47,450
of data in there, like, think of it as an email, and it gets then

409
00:25:47,450 --> 00:25:51,165
published down to Fountain. Right? So fountain

410
00:25:51,165 --> 00:25:54,925
is an inbox in this case because it's getting data from another

411
00:25:54,925 --> 00:25:58,519
app. And I'm an out box because I created

412
00:25:58,519 --> 00:26:02,200
it in Truefence. Conversely, if you were using

413
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,639
fountain and you created a clip or a boost in

414
00:26:05,639 --> 00:26:09,305
fountain and then published it, That's then goes out of

415
00:26:09,305 --> 00:26:13,065
Fountain's outbox for Daniel, and I then listen for

416
00:26:13,065 --> 00:26:16,525
that, and then I bring it into the inbox, which is the episode

417
00:26:17,030 --> 00:26:20,490
where it then gets aggregated with any other comments

418
00:26:20,550 --> 00:26:24,150
made by Truefans people. So you then get a

419
00:26:24,150 --> 00:26:27,965
mixture of Truefans comments and you get a mixture of Fountain and

420
00:26:27,965 --> 00:26:31,804
Podverse and, podcast guru. And that's how you

421
00:26:31,804 --> 00:26:35,400
get cross outcomes. This concept of an inbox and an

422
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,240
outbox is fundamentally critical to understanding how

423
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,695
activity pub works and how activity streams are just

424
00:26:42,695 --> 00:26:45,915
messages. So activity streams are just messages,

425
00:26:47,015 --> 00:26:50,780
but they happen to be richer than an email message, which is a single verb.

426
00:26:51,100 --> 00:26:54,720
It happens to be multiple verbs. And so I'm creating

427
00:26:55,500 --> 00:26:59,100
fundamentally a boost in email message if you wanna think of it. I'm then putting

428
00:26:59,100 --> 00:27:02,764
in my outbox in Truefans that then gets published, and that could be

429
00:27:02,764 --> 00:27:06,365
published to my Mastodon or to a central location. And then

430
00:27:06,365 --> 00:27:10,030
others are listening for it just like they would on an email, and then

431
00:27:10,030 --> 00:27:13,410
gets dragged into the inboxes of those applications.

432
00:27:14,430 --> 00:27:18,270
So that whole publishing aspect and the other apps listening, that is

433
00:27:18,270 --> 00:27:21,985
something where when you publish, you're sending it

434
00:27:21,985 --> 00:27:25,765
to those listening services. Right? It's a it's a push. Yes.

435
00:27:26,305 --> 00:27:30,130
Okay. So they could receive that push. They don't have to be

436
00:27:30,130 --> 00:27:33,970
running a server that is pulling p o o or p o

437
00:27:33,970 --> 00:27:37,725
l l Yeah. I n g. That is pulling these

438
00:27:37,725 --> 00:27:41,505
other services. They don't have to do that. They can just have a listener webhook

439
00:27:41,565 --> 00:27:44,945
endpoint, whatever. Ping. Yep. And it can receive that

440
00:27:45,660 --> 00:27:49,340
and then publish it to the centralized activity stream that

441
00:27:49,340 --> 00:27:52,860
belongs to the podcaster. Yep. And by belongs to, I mean, is in their

442
00:27:52,860 --> 00:27:56,415
control. It might be on the podcast hosting provider server,

443
00:27:56,415 --> 00:28:00,255
but it's in their control. And then one of the

444
00:28:00,255 --> 00:28:03,830
other problems, haven't mentioned yet in this episode, a big thing that I see is

445
00:28:03,830 --> 00:28:07,670
the need for moderation. Not in the sense of what the world

446
00:28:07,670 --> 00:28:11,205
is talking about with content moderation, but in the sense of the podcaster

447
00:28:11,345 --> 00:28:14,945
wants to be able to moderate content and control what content is

448
00:28:14,945 --> 00:28:18,680
seen with their content. So, a

449
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,360
practical example here is maybe I have a clean

450
00:28:22,360 --> 00:28:26,034
podcast designed for kids and someone

451
00:28:26,034 --> 00:28:29,495
comes JSON, and they make a comment that's laced with profanity

452
00:28:29,794 --> 00:28:33,570
and sexual content, whatever. Yep. And I might not

453
00:28:33,570 --> 00:28:37,330
be able to block their whole activity pub server

454
00:28:37,330 --> 00:28:40,770
because maybe they're using an open server that's used by a lot of other

455
00:28:40,770 --> 00:28:44,554
people. But I need to be able to either remove that

456
00:28:44,554 --> 00:28:48,075
comment completely or maybe it's a

457
00:28:48,075 --> 00:28:51,840
genuinely valuable comment, but they just didn't realize, oh,

458
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,380
this is to an audience of children. I probably shouldn't use this profanity.

459
00:28:55,919 --> 00:28:59,375
So, I would want the ability to then just edit

460
00:28:59,375 --> 00:29:02,975
out, censor that profanity so that the value they're

461
00:29:02,975 --> 00:29:06,735
giving in the comment could still be there, but it would still

462
00:29:06,735 --> 00:29:10,320
be appropriate for being

463
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,940
alongside my podcast. So that's why I think that there is the need for

464
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,840
a centralized storage of the activity stream. Yeah.

465
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,225
So so two parts to that. 1 is how do

466
00:29:21,845 --> 00:29:25,445
you moderate comments? I mean, look. We've we've all had this

467
00:29:25,445 --> 00:29:29,140
problem across the web. Right? I mean, look at look at YouTube's

468
00:29:29,140 --> 00:29:32,900
comments. Look at, you know, every time that Facebook has comments,

469
00:29:32,900 --> 00:29:36,555
there's a whole bunch of issues. Right? So, with

470
00:29:36,555 --> 00:29:40,095
Boost right now, we have no moderation in the sense of

471
00:29:40,395 --> 00:29:44,200
keyword lookups or keywords that we don't want. Right? That hasn't been built. But

472
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,960
what we have done again in true fans is got a flagging system and a

473
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,740
moderation system. So for example, in your admin dashboard

474
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,075
for the future of podcasting, if I made a profane

475
00:29:56,655 --> 00:30:00,415
boost, right? And somebody reported it, you don't have to

476
00:30:00,415 --> 00:30:03,290
see you you don't have to do it yourself but you can read all of

477
00:30:03,290 --> 00:30:07,130
your own comments that people are making. And you might say, right, flag that

478
00:30:07,130 --> 00:30:10,910
one, delete that one, get rid of that. As the owner of the podcast,

479
00:30:11,304 --> 00:30:15,065
you will get a flag notification and then you can read it and

480
00:30:15,065 --> 00:30:17,965
go, you know what, Sam? That wasn't very clever.

481
00:30:18,810 --> 00:30:22,650
I'm gonna delete it or I'm gonna send you a message which says, by

482
00:30:22,650 --> 00:30:25,850
the way, Sam change that. Take those words out and I'll I'll let it be

483
00:30:25,850 --> 00:30:29,434
published again. So we've built that in already as

484
00:30:29,434 --> 00:30:33,135
well. That moderation. That was built day 1 fundamentally

485
00:30:33,195 --> 00:30:36,890
because my wife used to run MSN UK and they had to close

486
00:30:36,890 --> 00:30:40,730
down all of the community, sites because of all

487
00:30:40,730 --> 00:30:44,465
of the pedophiles and the dodgy content that was going.

488
00:30:44,544 --> 00:30:48,065
So I've had that drilled into me from day 1. And I think we haven't

489
00:30:48,065 --> 00:30:51,904
even thought about that in the podcast community yet, about cross app

490
00:30:51,904 --> 00:30:55,649
comments and the whole of what you just said. We, you know, we

491
00:30:55,649 --> 00:30:59,190
we know that, YouTube commerce is a cesspool of commentary

492
00:30:59,649 --> 00:31:03,269
half the time, and we haven't seen that yet because guess what?

493
00:31:03,375 --> 00:31:07,135
There isn't enough, usage of boosts to

494
00:31:07,135 --> 00:31:10,835
make that a worry. The hope is that because a boost has a micropayment

495
00:31:11,055 --> 00:31:14,700
with it that that trolls won't leave, you know,

496
00:31:14,700 --> 00:31:18,539
crappy comments. That's what we're hoping, but that's not true. I've

497
00:31:18,539 --> 00:31:22,220
seen advertising comments. I've seen other comments that

498
00:31:22,220 --> 00:31:25,735
are, you know, one sat sort of made a micropayment

499
00:31:26,115 --> 00:31:29,795
but they put up total rubbish. And I remember from my days

500
00:31:29,795 --> 00:31:33,270
in, WordPress. You know, we had, something called a

501
00:31:33,270 --> 00:31:36,970
pingback, which was a great idea. Yeah. Right? Which was, you know,

502
00:31:37,030 --> 00:31:40,630
somebody's made a comment that's referenced you. You get a notification, blah blah

503
00:31:40,630 --> 00:31:43,755
blah. Well, of course, the the the spam has worked out that you could use

504
00:31:43,755 --> 00:31:46,235
pingbacks to go and do all sorts of other things, and we had to close

505
00:31:46,235 --> 00:31:49,595
that down. So I think we have got some challenges in the

506
00:31:49,595 --> 00:31:53,210
future, but, they're not there yet. And I think, you know, just make

507
00:31:53,330 --> 00:31:57,090
being able to do first level moderation flagging and deleting, I think,

508
00:31:57,090 --> 00:32:00,805
is the thing we have to look at. Yeah. And I think that the the

509
00:32:00,805 --> 00:32:04,425
solution for that is if that activity stream can be centralized

510
00:32:05,125 --> 00:32:08,500
that the podcaster has control over, and that is then

511
00:32:08,500 --> 00:32:12,179
seen as the source of truth Yeah. For that podcast. So the

512
00:32:12,179 --> 00:32:15,559
podcast apps would default to loading from that even though

513
00:32:15,934 --> 00:32:19,375
that comment would still exist somewhere out there in the

514
00:32:19,375 --> 00:32:22,595
fediverse. Mhmm. It would not be in my

515
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,419
comment stream, in my activity stream because

516
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:30,240
I've removed it. And so when a podcast app loads the cross app comments from

517
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,605
my podcast, it would be loading from my activity stream,

518
00:32:34,065 --> 00:32:37,905
and therefore, it would not show that comment. I think again, you

519
00:32:37,905 --> 00:32:41,710
know, let's go back to basics. Right? So an activity

520
00:32:41,710 --> 00:32:45,470
stream now, now that we've discussed it a little bit, is basically a

521
00:32:45,470 --> 00:32:48,770
set of activities of a user on a podcasting

522
00:32:48,830 --> 00:32:52,195
app. Daniel played feature of podcasting.

523
00:32:52,495 --> 00:32:56,175
Sam played podcasting 2 dot o.

524
00:32:56,655 --> 00:32:59,440
Daniel boosted Daniel clip. Right?

525
00:33:00,220 --> 00:33:03,980
That becomes a stream of activity that you own that is

526
00:33:03,980 --> 00:33:07,035
your data that you can have hidden

527
00:33:07,575 --> 00:33:11,415
for privacy or public. The bits that we know is that

528
00:33:11,415 --> 00:33:15,115
that can be published to your activity pub client like a Mastodon,

529
00:33:15,175 --> 00:33:18,790
so I can choose what I want my social network on Mastodon to

530
00:33:18,790 --> 00:33:22,550
know about what I'm doing or not. And then the final part

531
00:33:22,550 --> 00:33:25,645
is how we publish it to a central repository

532
00:33:26,424 --> 00:33:30,265
that will then allow cross app comments, cross app clips. And that third

533
00:33:30,265 --> 00:33:33,760
part is still being developed or thought

534
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,440
through and and is not finished. Right? So let's be

535
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,245
clear that part isn't. But my worry is what we're doing

536
00:33:41,245 --> 00:33:44,764
in the podcasting 2 dot o community right now is we're using the

537
00:33:44,764 --> 00:33:48,125
TLV record as a proxy for an activity

538
00:33:48,125 --> 00:33:51,460
stream with 4 verbs, and we're creating,

539
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:55,520
as you said rightly, a privacy issue that the person

540
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,085
who's receiving the money can create splits and then

541
00:33:59,385 --> 00:34:03,145
multiple people get that TLV record without the user

542
00:34:03,145 --> 00:34:06,770
who made the payment knowing where that record went to.

543
00:34:06,770 --> 00:34:10,469
And I don't think it's scalable because, you know, as I said,

544
00:34:10,690 --> 00:34:14,435
it's 20 podcast apps. Right? So Adam today puts 1%

545
00:34:14,494 --> 00:34:18,335
in for the boost to gram bot on fountain. What if Podverse has

546
00:34:18,335 --> 00:34:20,974
a boost to gram bot? What if I have a boost to gram bot? Does

547
00:34:20,974 --> 00:34:24,809
he have to put 3 splits in now? What if all 20 of us

548
00:34:24,809 --> 00:34:28,650
have a boost to gram bot? Is there 20 splits in Adam's wallet so

549
00:34:28,650 --> 00:34:32,324
that we can all see that TLV record? That is not a scalable

550
00:34:32,324 --> 00:34:35,464
solution. That is a hack, and it needs to stop.

551
00:34:36,324 --> 00:34:40,040
Yeah. And one of the things that I brought up before, and

552
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,719
I'll I'll mention what shot it down in a moment, but

553
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,400
I I brought up a proposal of what if we have on the

554
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,105
value tag for whatever split that you were putting in there. Now we

555
00:34:51,105 --> 00:34:54,545
have to think about also the time based splits, but for whatever

556
00:34:54,545 --> 00:34:58,310
split, you could have a flag on there that is basically

557
00:34:59,490 --> 00:35:03,110
like do not send messages with this.

558
00:35:04,610 --> 00:35:08,435
For for Podverse or for whatever. If we've got them in the

559
00:35:08,435 --> 00:35:12,035
split, then they do not get whatever message

560
00:35:12,035 --> 00:35:15,829
someone is sending, but they do get the split of

561
00:35:16,210 --> 00:35:19,890
the this booster grant or the, the sats that are being sent with

562
00:35:19,890 --> 00:35:23,185
them. One of the things that

563
00:35:23,724 --> 00:35:27,405
was used to shoot that down though was saying that all

564
00:35:27,405 --> 00:35:31,160
Boostagrams are already public. Is that true? Like, on the

565
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,680
blockchain sort of public or what? Yeah. I mean, if you go to

566
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,440
Olby, and you go to a product they've called Saturn, you can see

567
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:42,205
pretty much most streams that are coming through. I can see so

568
00:35:42,205 --> 00:35:45,965
anyone who's sending stuff to True Fans, I can go and see.

569
00:35:45,965 --> 00:35:49,380
Right? But because it's But you can only see it because it's being sent to

570
00:35:49,380 --> 00:35:53,140
True Fans. You can't there is no public record. And

571
00:35:53,140 --> 00:35:56,980
which is why you put somebody in the splits to make them available so

572
00:35:56,980 --> 00:36:00,355
that they can see that same TLV record. And I just

573
00:36:00,355 --> 00:36:04,055
think you know, let's be brutally honest. I think

574
00:36:04,515 --> 00:36:08,190
the idea of value for value is great. I love the idea of the micropayments.

575
00:36:08,490 --> 00:36:12,190
I love the idea of wallets and splits. I think that's a brilliant model.

576
00:36:12,650 --> 00:36:15,790
Don't wanna change that. But I think the data

577
00:36:16,744 --> 00:36:20,365
mechanism of how we record those activities

578
00:36:20,665 --> 00:36:22,685
around payments boosts streams,

579
00:36:24,420 --> 00:36:27,240
replies shouldn't be done through a TLV record.

580
00:36:28,020 --> 00:36:31,860
Okay. So I just had this light bulb moment that all this time when you've

581
00:36:31,860 --> 00:36:35,474
been saying that, like, dissing on the whole 20 different splits in a

582
00:36:35,474 --> 00:36:39,315
single podcast episode and saying the activity stream solves this, all this time

583
00:36:39,315 --> 00:36:43,130
I was thinking, how in the world so for anyone else that was there

584
00:36:43,130 --> 00:36:46,890
with me wondering how does this solve the splits, this was the light bulb moment

585
00:36:46,890 --> 00:36:50,685
that finally I realized is when you're adding like a Podverse

586
00:36:50,985 --> 00:36:54,765
or an OP3 or whatever in there, the only reason

587
00:36:54,905 --> 00:36:58,720
that many podcasters are putting that in there is so that those

588
00:36:58,720 --> 00:37:02,480
apps get access to the data. Yeah. So that they get access

589
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:06,305
to the activity. Yes. Not so they get

590
00:37:06,305 --> 00:37:08,705
a portion of the fee. Although, I'm sure some of the people And they will

591
00:37:08,705 --> 00:37:11,345
get a portion of the fee as well. They'll get a 1% portion of the

592
00:37:11,345 --> 00:37:15,190
fee. So what you're saying that we could do with this and

593
00:37:15,190 --> 00:37:18,410
the activity stream and everything is so that those services

594
00:37:19,430 --> 00:37:23,075
that only need to be able to track the activity could instead

595
00:37:23,855 --> 00:37:26,974
use the activity stream as long as the apps, whenever they send a boost to

596
00:37:26,974 --> 00:37:30,355
gram, also send that data over to the activity stream.

597
00:37:30,750 --> 00:37:34,510
And to your point, I could then say, yes. I want

598
00:37:34,510 --> 00:37:38,349
John Spurlock in o p 3 to have access to my activity, but, no,

599
00:37:38,349 --> 00:37:42,115
I don't want I can't think of anyone. Facebook

600
00:37:42,655 --> 00:37:46,255
on threads, which is an activity pub client to have access to my

601
00:37:46,255 --> 00:37:49,475
activity stream. Right? So I could choose

602
00:37:50,100 --> 00:37:53,860
where my activity stream is public when it's published, who has

603
00:37:53,860 --> 00:37:57,560
access to that published data. That's the point.

604
00:37:58,100 --> 00:38:01,704
And the problem is I, as the user, can

605
00:38:01,704 --> 00:38:05,085
set my permission levels on what I want public and private

606
00:38:05,385 --> 00:38:09,005
and access levels on who should get access to my data

607
00:38:09,220 --> 00:38:12,980
that I have published. So then you would be

608
00:38:12,980 --> 00:38:16,660
splitting right now it's data and payment is

609
00:38:16,660 --> 00:38:20,245
together. Mhmm. So you would be splitting it so that you only put who you

610
00:38:20,245 --> 00:38:24,005
want to receive a payment in your value time splits

611
00:38:24,005 --> 00:38:27,760
or your value splits. But data would be completely

612
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,520
separate from that. It can be. It doesn't have to be. It can be. So

613
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,260
as I said very earlier, the activity

614
00:38:35,145 --> 00:38:38,905
stream structure is active verb object. The object is

615
00:38:38,905 --> 00:38:42,745
fundamentally the episode, but we can extend the object to

616
00:38:42,745 --> 00:38:46,579
be the timeless and the value paid and the percent completed.

617
00:38:46,579 --> 00:38:50,339
We can extend objects to be multiple objects. It doesn't just have to

618
00:38:50,339 --> 00:38:53,994
be the episode name. Right? So what what

619
00:38:54,295 --> 00:38:58,055
did Value, the actor, do? He played the object. And

620
00:38:58,055 --> 00:39:01,820
what happened with that object? It had these extra attributes on it,

621
00:39:02,140 --> 00:39:05,820
value, time, and etcetera. That's data.

622
00:39:05,820 --> 00:39:09,645
That's just we've done it. We've seen this structured data. Right? You know?

623
00:39:09,805 --> 00:39:13,645
So that's data that that can be read. I could then, as

624
00:39:13,645 --> 00:39:17,485
a user through apps, choose what verbs are

625
00:39:17,485 --> 00:39:21,200
published. But once I've published that, I can then choose

626
00:39:21,660 --> 00:39:25,200
who has access to that as well. And so you aren't,

627
00:39:26,585 --> 00:39:30,125
separating payment from data. Sorry to be clear.

628
00:39:30,585 --> 00:39:34,410
But what you are doing is separating the for people to

629
00:39:34,410 --> 00:39:38,089
access the data I choose to publish because they have to have my

630
00:39:38,089 --> 00:39:41,685
permission to access my data. And that's all it is.

631
00:39:41,745 --> 00:39:45,505
So Fountain would request access to it and I go, yeah, I love

632
00:39:45,505 --> 00:39:48,785
Fountain. Yeah. I love Podverse wants it. Yeah. Go. You go for it. OP 3

633
00:39:48,785 --> 00:39:52,610
fantastic. Meta, nah. I'm not giving you my data. That's it.

634
00:39:52,610 --> 00:39:55,330
That's a simple Sure. Thing. And I don't think

635
00:39:56,615 --> 00:40:00,214
look. It it takes a little bit of thinking and time, but but you start

636
00:40:00,214 --> 00:40:03,255
off small and you can build it. So as I said in True Fans, we

637
00:40:03,255 --> 00:40:07,089
we create your activity stream around 30 verbs. We're going to

638
00:40:07,089 --> 00:40:10,769
step 2, allow users to publish that to chapters Don clients

639
00:40:10,769 --> 00:40:14,405
over activity pub, and then we're gonna work on a

640
00:40:14,965 --> 00:40:18,585
model for centralization of activities around

641
00:40:18,965 --> 00:40:22,485
a central repository. And when people say, oh, you can't

642
00:40:22,485 --> 00:40:25,950
centralize things. I go, isn't the podcast index a central

643
00:40:25,950 --> 00:40:29,550
repository? You know, I I won't say who told me that. And then I

644
00:40:29,550 --> 00:40:32,130
said, strange that, isn't it?

645
00:40:33,555 --> 00:40:37,154
And you know one of the cool potentials I'm realizing with this is right now

646
00:40:37,154 --> 00:40:40,515
we already have a great model of a way something like this is being used.

647
00:40:40,515 --> 00:40:44,340
Whenever you connect one App to another App, often there are certain

648
00:40:44,340 --> 00:40:48,040
permissions that you're giving. Certain apps require certain permissions,

649
00:40:48,500 --> 00:40:52,200
but you have control sometimes over those permissions.

650
00:40:52,565 --> 00:40:56,405
Like, you might say that for this app, I'm giving

651
00:40:56,405 --> 00:41:00,085
it permission to read Mhmm. All my data from this other app, but

652
00:41:00,085 --> 00:41:03,560
not to write to it. Exactly. Or like here in the activity

653
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:07,320
stream aspect, where maybe it's Saturn taps into

654
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:11,165
your activity stream, and then you're saying, I am giving Saturn permission

655
00:41:11,305 --> 00:41:14,045
to read all of the value

656
00:41:15,225 --> 00:41:18,630
of my satoshis I've received, but not

657
00:41:18,850 --> 00:41:22,610
the messages Yes. That came in from it. So, like, whatever that

658
00:41:22,610 --> 00:41:26,425
server is that's hosting the central activity stream could then handle

659
00:41:26,425 --> 00:41:30,265
that authentication, creating the different API endpoints, or all of that. That's all

660
00:41:30,265 --> 00:41:34,105
developer stuff that they can take care of. The podcaster themselves and the audience

661
00:41:34,105 --> 00:41:37,690
don't have to worry about that. That's pure developer stuff, but

662
00:41:37,990 --> 00:41:41,830
that's possible with this activity stream idea. Yes.

663
00:41:41,830 --> 00:41:45,175
Why don't we just switch why don't we just ditch RSS completely and switch to

664
00:41:45,175 --> 00:41:48,775
activity stream? Well, boy, don't don't don't No. No. No. Don't do

665
00:41:48,775 --> 00:41:52,599
not. I didn't say that, Adam. Yeah. That takes us back to

666
00:41:52,599 --> 00:41:56,440
RSS versus Atom. That's where that the whole discussion started.

667
00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:00,115
Look, I think what it is, I I

668
00:42:00,335 --> 00:42:03,955
I don't know whether we'll we'll get activity streams, if I'm honest,

669
00:42:04,095 --> 00:42:07,940
to to be adopted by everybody. I don't Because I think there's

670
00:42:07,940 --> 00:42:11,319
a lot of people who are invested into the TLV

671
00:42:11,460 --> 00:42:14,279
record and the way it works. So I think

672
00:42:15,115 --> 00:42:18,795
it could be the inertia of people saying, I'm not even gonna

673
00:42:18,795 --> 00:42:22,370
bother to look at what's going on elsewhere with an open standard. I'm gonna keep

674
00:42:22,450 --> 00:42:26,290
this proprietary standard that we have within our community because there's

675
00:42:26,290 --> 00:42:29,030
too many people invested into that proprietary standard.

676
00:42:31,205 --> 00:42:34,965
Well, one of the things that I've noticed with podcasting 2.0 is what

677
00:42:34,965 --> 00:42:38,725
catches an idea is when it can be shown

678
00:42:38,725 --> 00:42:42,210
that it's working and also the actual code

679
00:42:42,270 --> 00:42:45,710
shown like this is how easy this is to integrate with this thing or the

680
00:42:45,710 --> 00:42:49,515
other thing. And it has me thinking like

681
00:42:49,515 --> 00:42:53,275
with Podgaugment, Sam and I are both developers here and

682
00:42:53,275 --> 00:42:56,680
we are developing on very similar code stacks even. Mhmm. But it has me

683
00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:00,360
thinking where I want to go with Podgagement, all about engaging your

684
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:04,120
audience with a podcast, I want it to support cross app comments and I

685
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,694
will build that in whenever we figure out how that's possible.

686
00:43:08,154 --> 00:43:11,755
But I'm kind of wondering, maybe I should just

687
00:43:11,755 --> 00:43:15,540
start trying to work with you on what can I get

688
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:19,120
from true fans and bring it into Podgave already?

689
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,815
Yep. And then we can show that to the world to say, look.

690
00:43:22,815 --> 00:43:26,655
Here are 2 apps working together, and look how

691
00:43:26,655 --> 00:43:30,350
fast they're working because the activity stream is centralized. And one

692
00:43:30,350 --> 00:43:34,190
of the things one of the big reasons why I think that the activity

693
00:43:34,190 --> 00:43:37,875
stream itself needs to be centralized as a source of truth that the

694
00:43:37,875 --> 00:43:41,714
podcaster can control is the portability of it. Mhmm. That's something

695
00:43:41,714 --> 00:43:45,175
that else is, I think, very important in the podcasting space.

696
00:43:45,380 --> 00:43:48,900
Because everything else about podcasting is portable too. The

697
00:43:48,900 --> 00:43:52,340
activity stream needs to be portable as well. So to the point

698
00:43:52,340 --> 00:43:55,985
that you could take that activity stream, export it from

699
00:43:55,985 --> 00:43:59,345
whatever tool is currently hosting it, import it into the other

700
00:43:59,345 --> 00:44:02,500
tool, and then you just pick right up Yeah. Where you let them know. Guess

701
00:44:02,500 --> 00:44:05,880
what? It would contain your social graph and your podcast graph.

702
00:44:06,580 --> 00:44:10,244
So your social graph of people you follow and your podcast graph

703
00:44:10,244 --> 00:44:13,925
of the podcast that you JSON to. That's contained

704
00:44:13,925 --> 00:44:17,760
within the activity stream as well. So it's not just containing

705
00:44:17,820 --> 00:44:21,420
boosts and and and values paid and streams. It

706
00:44:21,420 --> 00:44:25,125
contains follows and, and, you know, we have we use

707
00:44:25,125 --> 00:44:28,805
the verb become a fan but that's subscribe. Right? That's fundamentally I

708
00:44:28,805 --> 00:44:32,560
subscribe to the future of podcasting. The minute that there's a new

709
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,700
episode of the future of podcasting, I get a notification.

710
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:40,079
Boom. That's simple. We just call the verb become a fan but underlying, it's

711
00:44:40,079 --> 00:44:43,835
really subscribe. And if I follow Daniel in True Fans

712
00:44:43,835 --> 00:44:47,675
and Daniel happens to listen to a new podcast or or makes a boost or

713
00:44:47,675 --> 00:44:51,170
a clip, I get a notification that says Daniel made a boost or a

714
00:44:51,170 --> 00:44:54,610
clip. And so the activity can be linked to

715
00:44:54,610 --> 00:44:58,305
notifications, which is, like, fundamentally webhooks. And

716
00:44:58,305 --> 00:45:02,005
again, that aspect of it as well is is really interesting.

717
00:45:02,065 --> 00:45:05,744
But I think where we are as an industry, I think we need

718
00:45:05,744 --> 00:45:08,930
to think We're getting excited about

719
00:45:09,150 --> 00:45:12,910
activity pub and then we sort of go,

720
00:45:12,910 --> 00:45:16,645
yeah, but we're not gonna use that. We're gonna use this other thing. And

721
00:45:16,645 --> 00:45:20,165
I I worry. That's where I am. I'm I'm very worried that

722
00:45:20,165 --> 00:45:24,005
we so I'm trying to find out if we could

723
00:45:24,005 --> 00:45:27,550
aggregate both activity streams and the TLV stuff together because all it

724
00:45:27,550 --> 00:45:31,010
means is I can take what I've got internally in Truefans, the verbs,

725
00:45:31,310 --> 00:45:34,110
and I can go to Dave Jones or I can go to Adam or whoever,

726
00:45:34,110 --> 00:45:37,494
Nathan. Say, hey, I've got an extrovert to add to the TLV

727
00:45:37,494 --> 00:45:40,935
record, follow or become a fan or subscribe or

728
00:45:40,935 --> 00:45:44,770
whatever. I don't even know who would make that decision

729
00:45:45,230 --> 00:45:48,770
to extend the TLV record with a new verb. I just don't know.

730
00:45:49,205 --> 00:45:52,905
It may be just down to Dave Jones, which is fine. I love Dave Jones.

731
00:45:53,125 --> 00:45:56,725
But I don't know, and it's not a standard that I could

732
00:45:56,725 --> 00:46:00,340
follow, whereas activity streams is a standard.

733
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:05,520
Yeah. And what I like about it is how extensible it

734
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,994
is. I think I've made a couple enemies in the Podcasting 2.0 space because Well,

735
00:46:08,994 --> 00:46:12,595
I think I am as well, Daniel. I tend to come in with one of

736
00:46:12,595 --> 00:46:15,394
2 things. Yes. Or it's a bonus if you get both of these things from

737
00:46:15,394 --> 00:46:19,030
me. One is, hey, the tag should be called this instead. Yes. Yes.

738
00:46:19,030 --> 00:46:22,630
That's one of the things that I'm, to put it in British for you, I'm

739
00:46:22,630 --> 00:46:26,375
on about often. The other thing is I often

740
00:46:26,435 --> 00:46:30,195
think of the future. That's why I wanted so much to

741
00:46:30,195 --> 00:46:33,920
be involved with this podcast with Dave, the future of podcasting, because I keep trying

742
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:37,619
to think about what is the potential for this? What are the

743
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,460
things that we could foresee doing with this? So how can we

744
00:46:41,835 --> 00:46:45,435
build it now so that it supports these things in the

745
00:46:45,435 --> 00:46:49,115
future? And, I see that with activity stream so much

746
00:46:49,115 --> 00:46:52,960
that in a way, it's almost like this beautiful blank

747
00:46:53,020 --> 00:46:56,380
canvas that we can do almost whatever we want with

748
00:46:56,380 --> 00:46:59,975
it. We will need a structure to it, of course, and

749
00:46:59,975 --> 00:47:03,495
certain verbs and a set of these things. But it could be easily

750
00:47:03,495 --> 00:47:07,140
extensible to the point that app developers who

751
00:47:07,140 --> 00:47:10,740
build in support for activity stream and cross app

752
00:47:10,740 --> 00:47:14,260
comments, at some point we could say, alright. Here

753
00:47:14,260 --> 00:47:17,775
is the protocol or the spec

754
00:47:17,915 --> 00:47:21,755
for podcast consumption data. So, report the

755
00:47:21,755 --> 00:47:25,560
playback at every 5% mark or every 1% or whatever it

756
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:29,320
is, every 10 seconds, 5 minutes, whatever. And whenever

757
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,984
we come up with that standard, then the developers who are

758
00:47:32,984 --> 00:47:36,585
already supporting cross app comments through activity stream could know that,

759
00:47:36,585 --> 00:47:40,265
hey. I already know how to write to the activity stream.

760
00:47:40,265 --> 00:47:44,040
All I need to do is add an extra trigger into my App

761
00:47:44,100 --> 00:47:47,940
that will send this slightly different data that's

762
00:47:47,940 --> 00:47:51,484
in the same structure, just slightly different verbiage here and there in the

763
00:47:51,484 --> 00:47:55,244
data to the same destination. And now,

764
00:47:55,244 --> 00:47:58,925
boom, we've got this other new feature and easily populating it. That's what I

765
00:47:58,925 --> 00:48:02,750
love about this. Yeah. And look, I think going back to what

766
00:48:02,750 --> 00:48:06,510
you said, I think, you know, post this, I'm very happy to sit down with

767
00:48:06,510 --> 00:48:10,085
you and show you how we've built the activity stream in True Fans and then

768
00:48:10,085 --> 00:48:13,785
how we can share that data, you know, with you.

769
00:48:14,244 --> 00:48:17,610
I can do it from my own activity stream, so I'm not asking for anyone

770
00:48:17,610 --> 00:48:21,370
else's permission. So before everyone goes, you're not giving all of your data

771
00:48:21,370 --> 00:48:24,975
to Daniel. I no. I can just do one. It doesn't have to be all.

772
00:48:25,055 --> 00:48:28,175
And Daniel can do his, so we've got 2 sets of streams and we can

773
00:48:28,175 --> 00:48:30,735
share that and we can cross that comment and we can do all sorts of

774
00:48:30,735 --> 00:48:34,470
different things with it. And then once we've worked it out and and one of

775
00:48:34,470 --> 00:48:37,350
the jokes in the industry, Dan Daniel, you said one of yours is, you know,

776
00:48:37,510 --> 00:48:41,095
you always talk about certain things and people go, oh, Daniel Varian. You don't have

777
00:48:41,095 --> 00:48:44,454
to do that. What's the name of this tag? Mine is and I get it

778
00:48:44,454 --> 00:48:47,974
often. Oh, True Fans has built every name space tag, have

779
00:48:47,974 --> 00:48:51,770
they? Right? And the answer is yes. And why do I

780
00:48:51,770 --> 00:48:55,450
do that? I I do that because seeing is believing.

781
00:48:55,450 --> 00:48:59,065
I believe that so we implemented pod roles first.

782
00:48:59,125 --> 00:49:02,805
And and the reason why James Cridland did it and I did it was because

783
00:49:02,805 --> 00:49:05,765
we could show it working. Then we could give it out to everybody and go,

784
00:49:05,765 --> 00:49:09,560
look. That's what it is. People then came back and said, you could tweak it

785
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:13,079
here, comment there, blah blah blah. We did that, and now it's rolled

786
00:49:13,079 --> 00:49:16,415
out. Same happened with, you know,

787
00:49:16,995 --> 00:49:19,895
publisher feeds that we've been working on recently. Okay?

788
00:49:20,515 --> 00:49:24,319
Those are, you know, aggregated podcast feeds of,

789
00:49:24,319 --> 00:49:28,020
you know, so Wondery might have 50 podcasts. Right?

790
00:49:28,079 --> 00:49:31,359
How do you find the other podcast that Wondery has if you re if you

791
00:49:31,359 --> 00:49:35,015
just like 1? Well, there's a publisher feed. Now we built those

792
00:49:35,155 --> 00:49:38,995
and Dovidast did that with me and and we made it work and it's

793
00:49:38,995 --> 00:49:42,550
looking great. There's a couple of tweaks still left to be done. But

794
00:49:42,550 --> 00:49:46,230
once those are done, that will be published as a standard. And so, yes, I'm

795
00:49:46,230 --> 00:49:49,755
a great believer in build fast, fix quickly.

796
00:49:52,375 --> 00:49:56,214
Yeah. And a a lot of potential. And

797
00:49:56,214 --> 00:49:59,700
I like that with since you're building a web app

798
00:49:59,859 --> 00:50:03,619
Mhmm. Where the cool thing these days is to call it a PWA, which

799
00:50:03,619 --> 00:50:07,035
I see that those three letters thrown around all this time and so many people

800
00:50:07,035 --> 00:50:10,815
don't even know what a PWA is. But progressive web app. But

801
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:15,200
what is great and what I want other developers to

802
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:18,960
understand is that you can be so agile

803
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,575
with your development because for one thing, there is no gatekeeper

804
00:50:22,714 --> 00:50:26,555
for you. You're not waiting for Apple to approve your latest app and

805
00:50:26,555 --> 00:50:30,280
they're not homing through your code to make sure that your app update

806
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:34,119
can be allowed onto the store. Like, look at Podcast Addict. Man, the

807
00:50:34,119 --> 00:50:37,925
problems that Xavier has faced with Google Mhmm. And Google

808
00:50:37,925 --> 00:50:41,605
is much more lenient than Apple is, but that he'll add a new

809
00:50:41,605 --> 00:50:44,425
feature and then Google will basically say, no. You can't do that.

810
00:50:45,410 --> 00:50:48,849
And so he runs into that problem. You don't have that problem. So you get

811
00:50:48,849 --> 00:50:51,910
to be agile, and you don't have to wait

812
00:50:52,355 --> 00:50:56,194
until True Fans 5 can launch to start thinking

813
00:50:56,194 --> 00:50:59,494
about podcasting 2 point o No. Support.

814
00:51:00,847 --> 00:51:04,550
JSON. But you can just put in that feature right away and

815
00:51:04,550 --> 00:51:07,990
that's what's really neat about the web based development of

816
00:51:07,990 --> 00:51:11,815
this. And that that was really just a little

817
00:51:11,815 --> 00:51:15,575
tangent aside there. But what I would love to see

818
00:51:15,575 --> 00:51:18,315
then is more of these web based tools

819
00:51:19,250 --> 00:51:22,690
being this agile like this since we

820
00:51:22,690 --> 00:51:26,390
can. And so that's why I'm thinking, since I've got Podgageman,

821
00:51:26,609 --> 00:51:30,175
I wanted to have more Podcasting 2.0 support. I'm thinking,

822
00:51:30,555 --> 00:51:33,994
what can I do to demonstrate what's

823
00:51:33,994 --> 00:51:37,490
possible with ActivityStream? And there's just so much that we could do with it

824
00:51:37,730 --> 00:51:41,490
Mhmm. That could solve a lot of problems. And even

825
00:51:41,650 --> 00:51:45,434
I I was thinking too that you don't necessarily have to

826
00:51:45,434 --> 00:51:49,035
have a single activity stream for a podcast. No. You

827
00:51:49,035 --> 00:51:52,414
could potentially have multiples. Like this is the

828
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:56,099
the comments activity stream. This is the

829
00:51:56,640 --> 00:52:00,400
playback consumption rate activity stream if they needed to

830
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:04,015
be split apart like that. Because I know, I talk

831
00:52:04,015 --> 00:52:07,635
about episode metadata file, and some people hate me for that term,

832
00:52:07,775 --> 00:52:11,590
the chapters and all of that stuff. But what's cool about

833
00:52:11,590 --> 00:52:14,150
the way that we are doing chapters right now is that it can be split

834
00:52:14,150 --> 00:52:17,755
into a separate file and you can have other episode metadata in a

835
00:52:17,755 --> 00:52:20,734
separate file or you could merge these all into the same file.

836
00:52:21,355 --> 00:52:25,150
There's that same kind of potential with Activity Stream. So

837
00:52:25,369 --> 00:52:29,130
I love how this looks possible, and I am now

838
00:52:29,130 --> 00:52:32,685
an advocate of this. I know that here on the

839
00:52:32,685 --> 00:52:36,285
future of podcasting a few months ago, I was all gung ho about this

840
00:52:36,285 --> 00:52:39,585
proposal I had for Cross App comments of a way to do things.

841
00:52:39,965 --> 00:52:43,230
And, Basically, what I was describing,

842
00:52:43,930 --> 00:52:47,530
I was kind of reinventing Activity Stream but in

843
00:52:47,530 --> 00:52:50,724
a very clunky way and a not

844
00:52:51,425 --> 00:52:55,045
not backed by certain standards. Like, the activity stream

845
00:52:55,329 --> 00:52:59,089
is a W3C standard Yes. Which is the World

846
00:52:59,089 --> 00:53:02,770
Wide Web Consortium. Yep. So this is a standard of how to

847
00:53:02,770 --> 00:53:06,225
form this data and how to structure it, so it's not like we're making up

848
00:53:06,225 --> 00:53:08,965
something on our own. But it's a flexible standard.

849
00:53:10,385 --> 00:53:14,089
Yes. I like it. The other thing that you you should be aware of, you

850
00:53:14,089 --> 00:53:17,690
mentioned, podcast streams and and and creator streams.

851
00:53:17,690 --> 00:53:21,375
So first the first stream that you as a user

852
00:53:21,375 --> 00:53:25,135
on Truefence see is your own personal stream. Right? Of everything you that you've done

853
00:53:25,135 --> 00:53:28,950
across if if you think about it multiple podcasts, so that's your view

854
00:53:28,950 --> 00:53:32,410
of the world. But when you go to a podcast

855
00:53:32,470 --> 00:53:36,235
site, let's say the future of podcasting, it will show an

856
00:53:36,235 --> 00:53:40,075
activity stream of any user that's interacted with

857
00:53:40,075 --> 00:53:43,835
that podcast. So so who played, who boosted, who clicked

858
00:53:43,835 --> 00:53:47,655
on the future of podcasting. And non fans

859
00:53:48,188 --> 00:53:51,786
and all of their

860
00:53:52,319 --> 00:53:55,525
activity. So and non fans

861
00:53:55,985 --> 00:53:59,765
and all of their activity. So then you get an aggregated

862
00:53:59,905 --> 00:54:03,525
view. So Sam played my, latest episode,

863
00:54:03,790 --> 00:54:06,849
but he only played 70% of it and he gave me

864
00:54:07,150 --> 00:54:10,885
6,000 sats. Right? That's an activity entry and

865
00:54:10,885 --> 00:54:14,565
then we can roll that up for that episode. So now you can

866
00:54:14,565 --> 00:54:18,265
roll up all of that activity and say, this podcast episode

867
00:54:18,485 --> 00:54:21,690
earned 27,000 sats. There were 16 listeners

868
00:54:21,990 --> 00:54:24,810
and the on average they dropped off at 44%,

869
00:54:26,070 --> 00:54:28,970
and it was 60% complete. Right? Whatever that so

870
00:54:29,725 --> 00:54:33,245
because that's just data from the individual that became

871
00:54:33,245 --> 00:54:37,005
aggregated at a podcast episode level and then rolled up

872
00:54:37,005 --> 00:54:40,730
again. Eventually, we will roll that up to a total podcast level. So you've

873
00:54:40,730 --> 00:54:44,430
got, I think, 35, 36 episodes of the future of podcasting.

874
00:54:44,925 --> 00:54:48,685
You will then see how many sets has that future of podcasting at, how many

875
00:54:48,685 --> 00:54:52,285
fans have they got, etcetera, etcetera. There's so much you can

876
00:54:52,285 --> 00:54:56,020
do from the activity stream data just within the

877
00:54:56,020 --> 00:54:59,800
app itself, let alone sharing it cross app,

878
00:55:00,260 --> 00:55:03,800
let alone sharing it with analytics companies and whatever.

879
00:55:04,305 --> 00:55:08,085
So, yeah, there's a lot you can do with it because it's good structured data.

880
00:55:09,185 --> 00:55:12,944
Let's keep that, like all the bigger things, a little secret just between us and

881
00:55:12,944 --> 00:55:16,370
our audience for now just so we don't overwhelm everyone when we come

882
00:55:16,370 --> 00:55:19,670
back saying, Hey, we're all gung ho with Activity Stream.

883
00:55:20,850 --> 00:55:24,345
There's I'm excited about this and what we can

884
00:55:24,345 --> 00:55:28,105
do. I'm totally on board with this now, especially now that I understand a little

885
00:55:28,105 --> 00:55:31,790
bit better. And you listening right now, I hope I know we got in the

886
00:55:31,790 --> 00:55:34,670
weeds on some of the stuff we know. Sorry. We probably lost everyone in that,

887
00:55:34,670 --> 00:55:38,350
unfortunately. I didn't mean to. Well,

888
00:55:38,350 --> 00:55:42,135
I I think the people who need to understand this

889
00:55:42,195 --> 00:55:45,715
most can probably figure this out. And we'll have put some

890
00:55:45,715 --> 00:55:49,560
links also, like, to the w three c standard and some more information. And

891
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:53,240
there's also a book coming out Yep. About all of this. We'll have those links

892
00:55:53,240 --> 00:55:56,460
in the notes for this episode, number 39, on future of podcasting.net.

893
00:55:58,715 --> 00:56:01,915
So there is a lot of potential for this. And the nice thing is that

894
00:56:01,915 --> 00:56:05,675
the individual podcaster eventually will not have to

895
00:56:05,675 --> 00:56:09,230
learn this. Years ago, I gave a keynote at a podcasting

896
00:56:09,290 --> 00:56:13,130
conference, and the keynote was the future of podcasting. And one

897
00:56:13,130 --> 00:56:16,595
of my predictions was the technology will disappear

898
00:56:17,134 --> 00:56:20,734
in the aspect of the audience and the podcaster won't

899
00:56:20,734 --> 00:56:24,569
even have to worry about what's running it. They won't have

900
00:56:24,569 --> 00:56:28,410
to worry that it's activity stream. It will just work. Yep. That's when

901
00:56:28,410 --> 00:56:32,165
the technology disappears. Nobody who's using

902
00:56:33,025 --> 00:56:36,725
Spotify or Apple Podcasts or YouTube, you know, the main

903
00:56:36,945 --> 00:56:40,760
big three, let's say, knows that the underlying delivery technology

904
00:56:40,819 --> 00:56:44,260
is RSS. They don't need to. Right? The fundamentally

905
00:56:44,500 --> 00:56:48,345
it ends up in the Apple Podcast and they play it. And that's it.

906
00:56:48,345 --> 00:56:52,025
End of story. They don't need to understand how it got there and

907
00:56:52,025 --> 00:56:55,789
what it was delivered by. Right. And it's the same with, I

908
00:56:55,789 --> 00:56:59,390
I just wanna know that there was a comment made on this app and it's

909
00:56:59,390 --> 00:57:03,069
over on this app, and now it's at the same they're aggregated together under one

910
00:57:03,069 --> 00:57:06,565
episode, and that's magically happened. I don't need to know how it

911
00:57:06,565 --> 00:57:10,165
happened, and that's that's what we have to get to. So you set me a

912
00:57:10,165 --> 00:57:13,880
challenge on Macedon this week, which was I said,

913
00:57:14,579 --> 00:57:18,260
you know, I've put the best I can as version

914
00:57:18,260 --> 00:57:20,930
1, a help system into this in into

915
00:57:21,815 --> 00:57:25,355
Truefans. And we use activity streams with gamification.

916
00:57:25,815 --> 00:57:29,540
So, when you, enable your wallet, that's

917
00:57:29,620 --> 00:57:32,740
a a verb, you know, and then we give you some sats for doing that

918
00:57:32,740 --> 00:57:36,420
750 sats for enabling your wallet. When you do your first boost, we

919
00:57:36,420 --> 00:57:40,095
can give you sats. We can do that 10 times. So you're learning

920
00:57:40,155 --> 00:57:43,835
and earning at the same time. But then your 11th boost, we won't

921
00:57:43,835 --> 00:57:47,595
pay you. Right? That's just a gamification model that we've attached to

922
00:57:47,595 --> 00:57:51,200
Verbs. And the thing about it is you said to me, well,

923
00:57:51,420 --> 00:57:54,540
don't do the videos because I'm in the middle of doing loads of videos just

924
00:57:54,540 --> 00:57:58,385
showing how it all works. And my my answer to you is

925
00:57:58,385 --> 00:58:02,005
yes. You're right. It shouldn't need videos and it shouldn't need extensive

926
00:58:02,145 --> 00:58:05,665
help files to make this work because complexity has failed

927
00:58:05,665 --> 00:58:09,380
simplicity. And, fundamentally, though,

928
00:58:09,380 --> 00:58:11,960
what we're struggling with is vocabulary.

929
00:58:13,220 --> 00:58:17,005
Yeah. Somebody on the Mastodon list said to

930
00:58:17,005 --> 00:58:20,285
me, I don't even understand the difference between a Zap and a boost. So when

931
00:58:20,285 --> 00:58:23,565
I explained it to them very simply, a Zap is a a like with a

932
00:58:23,565 --> 00:58:27,370
payment and a boost is a comment with a payment. Why doesn't anyone ever

933
00:58:27,370 --> 00:58:31,130
say that to me? Right? I'm like, well, they probably have, but now

934
00:58:31,130 --> 00:58:34,805
they've got so far down the weeds of not having to re explain

935
00:58:34,805 --> 00:58:38,005
every time when they say the word zap and when they say boost because they

936
00:58:38,005 --> 00:58:41,684
expect everyone to understand it. And we have to remember people don't even know

937
00:58:41,684 --> 00:58:45,160
what those things mean, Let alone value time splits and

938
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:49,000
wallet switching and everything else. Right? So there's

939
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:52,460
a lot of complexity in what we're all doing. And,

940
00:58:53,405 --> 00:58:56,385
yeah, that vocabulary just needs to be

941
00:58:57,485 --> 00:59:01,165
common knowledge. And then I think a lot of it becomes easier to not

942
00:59:01,165 --> 00:59:04,770
have to explain how to do it with a video, but people think, oh,

943
00:59:04,770 --> 00:59:08,529
yeah. Oh, you wanna boost it? I've got a wallet. There's

944
00:59:08,529 --> 00:59:12,255
there's 50 sats done. Right? It all becomes second nature. I just

945
00:59:12,255 --> 00:59:16,095
don't know when it'll become second nature. And speaking

946
00:59:16,095 --> 00:59:19,270
of boosts, we got a boost here that is,

947
00:59:20,770 --> 00:59:24,150
100,000 It sounds bad person.

948
00:59:24,610 --> 00:59:28,325
It says great show, great episode. Please keep them coming.

949
00:59:28,385 --> 00:59:32,065
And am I back at the top of the leaderboard? And that

950
00:59:32,065 --> 00:59:35,585
came from Sam. Thank you so much. You're very

951
00:59:35,585 --> 00:59:39,210
welcome. I was I was gutted when Dave Jackson said I was on top of

952
00:59:39,210 --> 00:59:42,730
the leaderboard. So I went, well, that's it. 100,000. Send that straight

953
00:59:42,730 --> 00:59:45,755
over. Let's see if that gets me back there. So I don't know if I

954
00:59:45,755 --> 00:59:49,215
am or who knows? Yeah. And just to be clear,

955
00:59:49,275 --> 00:59:52,829
that boost is not what got Sam onto this podcast. No. Thank you. Sam and

956
00:59:52,829 --> 00:59:56,270
I have been wanting to have a conversation for a long time. It just worked

957
00:59:56,270 --> 00:59:59,994
out really cool to be able to thank you personally here on the

958
00:59:59,994 --> 01:00:02,655
podcast for that boost. So thank you so much.

959
01:00:03,434 --> 01:00:07,260
Anyone else who would like to send us a boost, please do send that inside

960
01:00:07,260 --> 01:00:10,700
of your podcast app, and recommend that your own audience, if you've got an audience

961
01:00:10,700 --> 01:00:14,305
of other podcasters or listeners, recommend that they check out a new

962
01:00:14,305 --> 01:00:15,925
podcast app over at podcasting2.org/apps.

963
01:00:18,945 --> 01:00:22,670
For Dave Jackson, I'm Daniel j Lewis, And Sam Sethi

964
01:00:22,670 --> 01:00:26,350
was our guest here from truefans.fm. Check him out. Thank you

965
01:00:26,350 --> 01:00:29,810
so much for listening. Keep boosting and keep podcasting.