What Might The Future Be For YOUR Podcast?

Daniel J. Lewis [00:00:00]:

What might the future be for your podcast? This is The Future of Podcasting, where.

Dave Jackson [00:00:05]:

We ponder what awaits the podcasters of today. From the school of podcasting, here's Dave Jackson.

Daniel J. Lewis [00:00:13]:

And from the Audacity to podcast, here's Daniel J Lewis.

Dave Jackson [00:00:17]:

Daniel, the Future of Podcasting Episode 18 we can do whatever we want. You can't tell me what to do.

Daniel J. Lewis [00:00:24]:

You have $15.5 million, Dave?

Dave Jackson [00:00:29]:

I think I have that. Let me see. I think I have that. No, that's just bills.

Daniel J. Lewis [00:00:35]:

Okay, we can't do whatever we want, but someone's going to get to because there is a podcast for value for $15.5 million. One podcast. We're not talking about a network. We're not talking about like Gimlet or serial productions or anything like that. One podcast, $15.5 million. So this makes me kind of think, what is the future of podcasts? Like the individual futures of these different podcasts, not the industry as a whole, but the separate podcasts that we each host. What might be our futures for each of our shows?

Dave Jackson [00:01:17]:

Yeah, because I remember right, cereal got purchased by the New York Times. My buddy Glenn the Geek over the Horse Radio Network sold his whole network, and in that case, he sold it to kind of another media company that is all around horses again. So that was a great fit. Matthew Passsey, who you can find@thepodcastconsultant.com some other guy, owns podcastconsultant.com, and I love Matthew's Reason. You might identify with this, Daniel. He decided, hey, you know what? I want to go watch my kids grow up. Very noble. Exactly. And so we wish him the best. He's a great guy. I'm assuming he's going to keep a toe in, but I could be wrong. He might back completely out and I'm assuming sold. He just said he's no longer using it and new people are moving in. So I'm assuming he sold it for something. But that's another example of somebody who has sold their show. And if you think about it, in fact, I think you said they've already done this. The quick and dirty tips network minion Fogerty If you think about it, she is Grammar Girl. And if you look at their website, everybody there is a cartoon. And the cartoon might look I don't know if it looks like her or not. I've never really tested. But that's the whole point. It kind of doesn't matter, is if they have a very carved out kind of structure. All their shows are hence the name quick and Dirty. It's right to the point they have probably a number of words, I would think, maybe even. And they get in, they announce it, and they jump in. And so in the event when mignon's tired of being Grammar Girl, you could find somebody else. And you said you think they've already done that?

Daniel J. Lewis [00:03:13]:

Yeah, I think for a couple of their shows, they have already replaced co hosts or the co hosts and hosts have switched out from the shows. And that is a case where the network owns the show and the network has some perceived value that they see to the show and they want to continue it. Or maybe someone steps up and says, I would love to continue the show. I don't know the reasons behind some of those decisions. I just believe that they have done that already and they designed it to be very mobile in that sense, where the host can be mobile, they're replaceable, they're expendable in some regard. And that's really cool future focused thinking. And I think that even for our individual podcast, we're probably not going to get purchased by Spotify or New York Times. We're probably not going to sell our podcast for $15.5 million, let's say $15.5 at this point.

Dave Jackson [00:04:18]:

That's a Happy Meal.

Daniel J. Lewis [00:04:20]:

Careful, someone might send the boost just for that and say, I own you guys. Now.

Dave Jackson [00:04:25]:

We will consider offers of $15 or higher. Yes, exactly.

Daniel J. Lewis [00:04:31]:

So I think that this is a very interesting thing because for one thing, what it sell me is there is ongoing value to these shows and the industry is recognizing that ongoing value. And that's exciting because we see it. We both have podcasts about podcasting. And I felt like I was jumping into a saturated space back when I started the Audacity to podcast. And I think it was only you, Cliff Ravenscraft, and maybe one other podcast about podcasting. And I thought it was saturated back then with three or four others. Now there are plenty of others out there. So I think a few things here is I think that it's neat to see that some of these companies are more interested in investing in existing talent or existing audiences and platforms instead of building yet another one. I think it's also really interesting to see that they're recognizing the value of these existing properties and not just discarding them as trash or trying to make a competition, but saying, hey, let's take this over. This looks great. They've built something amazing. We want to be part of that and we'd love to be the stewards of that in the future. And I think it presents great opportunities for those who put in the really hard work and lit themselves on fire in a visual case, literally, for one of John Lee Dewis's cover art images. And I think that is a great payout opportunity. How is it for all of us? No, but I think it does raise the question of what is the future we want for our own podcast.

Dave Jackson [00:06:21]:

Yeah. And if you think about Glenn, I know he mentioned that. And I don't know how many numbers or what kind of numbers we're talking about, but one of his smallest shows on his network was it was some weird rare breed of horse that he said I could charge more for ads on that because the only people that own that kind of horse had lots of money. So that will tie into it. And if you think about it, if you have a big audience, because obviously when you change out the host, there are going to be some people that are just going to leave. They're like, no, I didn't really watch The Daily Show after John Stewart left. They gave Trevor Noah a little bit, and I was like and I would tune in every now and then. And now Trevor's left. And it's interesting because if I get this right, unless it was just a one time fill in, they had a new female host, and I was like, oh, this is cool. They've really gone. In theory, it's weird to think it's a new direction, but if the content is the content, it's really not that different. But you could say that women can look at her on the screen and go, OOH, that could be me someday. So I always get that point. But on the other hand, I was talking to I think it was Joel Osteen in a book, he was talking about how his dad had a church that was very traditional, and they only sang hymns, and they only played with the organ, and they started to kind of modernize it a bit. And there were people that were like, yeah, this isn't really my cup of tea. But on the other hand, they also attracted a whole new audience that was way bigger now that he has the basketball stadium for his church. So you're going to lose some people when you switch hosts, but you also might gain a whole new audience. And again, it goes back to what you were saying. As long as you're delivering value, I'm with you. I think it's awesome that somebody can say, hey, can we buy your podcast? And then from there, at that point, it's just their job not to mess it up. And if they can just keep it going and I don't know, is it just me? Do you think podcast listeners are more I feel they're more likely to give somebody a shot. Do you think they're like, what, they're changing the host? I could see people going, all right, I'll listen to one episode at least, as opposed to, wait, what? They fired so and so, or, you know, so and so is leaving.

Daniel J. Lewis [00:08:52]:

Oh, I'm out.

Dave Jackson [00:08:53]:

That's the only reason. I don't know. I want to feel maybe it's just wishful thinking, but I want to think that podcasters would at least give the new person a chance.

Daniel J. Lewis [00:09:03]:

Yeah, I think so. And you see that also with TV shows when sometimes some cast members leave, some new cast members come in, unless you do something like Airwolf from the 80s, where they completely replace the cast and then cut the budget, and everything after that was horrible quality.

Dave Jackson [00:09:25]:

Now, this is before my time, for the record. It's before my time, before your time. But bewitched if you see them in reruns, they had a guy named Darren, I forget, I don't know the actual actor's name. And they replaced him with a guy that looked just like him. And it was Dick York and Dick something. It was weird that both of them looked like each other and they're both first names were Dick, but they played Darren on the show and it was just one of those things where you kind of walked in, you're like, wow, Darren looks a little weird today. And you're like, I don't know, maybe it's my glasses. I don't know what's going on. So that's why I was thinking if you swap it out with somebody that's close, then maybe people won't notice quite as much. But on the other hand, if you swap it out with somebody completely different, you might end up with a different audience that's actually bigger. You never know.

Daniel J. Lewis [00:10:12]:

Yeah, that thing you're saying about the audience is probably willing to give it a chance. I just had that today while I was mowing the yard. I listen to fun podcasts while I mow the yard because I hate mowing the grass. I always have fun podcasts in my app that I can listen to and makes it much easier to do. So one of my favorite funny podcasts is do the Right Thing. And it's a British show where get this, it's a bunch of comedians getting together and actually being funny.

Dave Jackson [00:10:46]:

There's a novel idea I know mind Equals. They actually tell jokes and stuff and make you laugh. Wow.

Daniel J. Lewis [00:10:54]:

So it's not a clean show, but it's not super explicit. But they've been on a long hiatus for a while now. Their audio quality was not great. I think most of the time they were recording, they were in a room with an audience and there was a microphone or a recorder sitting somewhere near a speaker. I think that's how they recorded it nice. But it was listenable. So not pristine, but listenable. And it was absolutely hilarious content. So that's why I listened to it. Well, just today I saw a new episode in the feed, which is actually now at this point from a few weeks ago, but the title was something very obvious, like not a new episode but or something like that. So it was the main host was promoting her other show that she was launching and knowing how funny she is in do the Right Thing, I thought I want to hear because maybe she's taking that same level of humor to this other show. So I gave it a chance. She did the feed drop thing where she dropped an episode of that new show in her feed for the old show. So I gave it a chance. I wouldn't have given it a chance otherwise. And unfortunately, in this case, I decided that other show isn't for me. I just didn't like it. I didn't connect with it as well as the main show. So I just deleted that episode, but I'm still subscribed to the main podcast. Now, if it's a case where it's the same show and just replacing someone, it's going to depend for me. I don't want to throw them under the bus, but there's a podcast you and I both know where it used to be the host, very popular business show where the host was solo by himself for a while and then brought on a co host and it just wasn't very listenable for a little while. And that's when I unsubscribed. It was the same main host but the co host and the format change and some of the other things, it just wasn't as good for me anymore.

Dave Jackson [00:12:58]:

Yeah, the difference for that with me is it always seemed like when a solo podcast, you feel like the host is talking to you because there's nobody else in the room with them. So who else are they talking to? And if they don't start off the show with hey guys, it kind of feels like they're talking to you. And so I went from having this wise sage of a person give me business advice to this person talking to another person who was kind of interviewing them. But I went from being a conversation to being a fly on the wall. Now I get to listen to them talk and I'm with you. It just wasn't the same. And the other thing you have to be careful of if you batch record things. So let's say we record seven episodes today, and in the first episode there's some sort of inside joke and we go, man, if that was a bet, I'd owe you $5. And you're like, yes. Well, then later in the day, it's 4 hours later, you're on episode seven and somebody says something, you go owe me $5. And if that's the first step, you have no idea what that joke is. So be careful when you're batch recording with stuff like that. But that was another one. A similar show started off with one person talking to one person. They brought in another co host. They have since gone back. I was kind of glad I went back to see, hey, what's going on with this guy? And I was like, oh, he's back to doing solo shows. That's great. So I was very happy to see that. And I did. I gave both those shows a lot of episodes thinking it's just different. But it was just one of those where you just find yourself. For me, I often set up a podcast app to keep maybe one or two episodes. And after that it'll just start deleting the oldest one and keeping the newest one. And I just started noticing that there were a lot of episodes that I never got around to listening to because it just wasn't that the value brings you in. That's the one that a lot of these apps. And I now realize there are two versions of apps. There is one that put all your episodes in online and you pick whether or not to put them into a queue, or you have things like Apple podcast and overcast and cast a matic where you can say, hey, I want to subscribe to the show. And when it comes in, automatically download it and put it in this playlist. And then you can listen to that playlist and it'll go next to next and next and next, and some people like one and some people like the other. And if you're in that one where here it is, here's a pile of podcasts. You want to listen to these or not? That's really where your title comes into play. And it is a way kind of like you're only as good as your last episode. And if the last episode wasn't any good and the one before that was okay, there's a time when you just start swiping left a little more frequently than you usually do.

Daniel J. Lewis [00:15:47]:

Yeah. So when you're talking about replacing a co host or a host, even whether it's a single solo show or co hosted, I think it really depends on does that new host or co host continue providing the same value or the same kind of personality? Not exactly same personality, but the same flavor, basically, that people are coming to the podcast for. So if Grammar Girl, if Minion Fogarty, I mean, we all think of her as Grammar Girl, so it would be you know, the world would explode if Grammar Girl was ever someone other than Minion Fogarty. But if it ever was, well, I would expect the same level of quality and information and the same quirky little humor here and there. And I would still probably enjoy it because I listen for that primarily for the content. I also enjoy the personality. The same thing, like you were saying with The Daily Show replacing the host. Is it the same tone? Is it what people are still coming for? Or if you replace a regular co host with your show and then taking this back to the tease that we said with the $15.5 million show that's for sale, it doesn't actually say and we can put the link in the notes for this episode, it doesn't actually say what show it is. But if you look at the numbers that are quoted in this sales pitch page and then go over to EOFire.com and look at the same numbers over there, you will see some of the same numbers, like 145,000,000 listeners sell. You'll see it 145,000,000 over $100,000 per month. Over $100,000 per month. It's very easy to see what a coinky dink. Yeah. Well, John Lee Dumas has been hosting that show for over eleven years, a Daily Show. He's interviewed over 3500 people on his show, and I haven't listened to all 3500 episodes. But I do wonder, is he still asking the exact same questions today that he was asking twelve years ago. If so, now that does not work so well for other people. John found a formula that worked well for him and that he could really master those questions. And it's not just a matter of figure out a formula and repeat it 3500 times. He figured out one that works best for him and his audience and his show. But that aside, because it's so formulaic, I wonder if it was simply a different voice, would the audience stick around? Because how much are they there for John versus how much are they there for the guest? Or for whatever insights are gleaned because of those questions. Like, if the questions are designed so well to get such good information, then does it really matter who's asking the questions?

Dave Jackson [00:18:51]:

Yeah, I could see where that one would be fine with a new host because and it dawned on me once when I was listening to the show, he's actually walking people through the hero's journey. Like, when did you know you wanted to do this? What were some of the struggles when you first started? What was your AHA moment? Tell us what's working now? And then you get into fun things like what are your favorite tools and things like that. But that whole part where you're not sure if you're going to make it or not and how did you get the courage to move through and then what was your I'm like, that's the hero's journey. And I was like, I wonder if he did that on purpose or if it just because if you listen, you end up with a really great story and John is just there to basically get them going in the right direction. And I listened probably a couple of months ago because I just like, I wonder what John's up to? And he does ask a few more follow up questions and I think he probably always did that, but we all always go, it's the same eight questions or whatever, because it is, but they're really good questions. But I could see that show working with somebody else. Not that John doesn't count because that's the other thing. It would be interesting if somebody came in because, you know, John is stoked to be there and he is kind of a he's almost borderline sports announcer. Energy boom. Shake the room and all that other stuff. If somebody came in and said, hey, welcome to EO Fire, I'm your host Clyde today, I don't know, it would be so different. But on the other hand, they're going to be those people that are like, oh, finally they got somebody who's not shouting at me. So it could be interesting to see. That's going to be fun to watch. If I just had 15.5 million sell.

Daniel J. Lewis [00:20:29]:

And it makes me wonder, what is he thinking about this? Because if you're thinking of selling your podcast, one of the things you have to think about is you're really selling your audience not in a bad way, right, but you're selling access to them. You are handing over the responsibility, the leadership of your audience to someone else. And you really have to think about, is someone else going to take as good a care of my audience or better than I've done? And for a formulaic show like EO Fire, I think that can be fairly easy to do as long as it's someone who's enthusiastic about the content and maybe there are some areas for improvement that someone else might want to come along and add a 9th question. So maybe he's looking at that and seeing that this is something that other people could take over easily. I think, like, for the audacity to podcast, I don't know that I would trust someone else to really serve my audience in the way that I want my audience served. What do you feel?

Dave Jackson [00:21:42]:

I can say it's hard. When I was the first time I went to college, I was the editor of the student newsletter. And I started off as a writer. I was writing movie reviews and literally everybody on the team graduated. And they're like, all right, congratulations, you're the editor. So I built up a team in the whole nine yards. And my problem was I was having too much fun because I was doing like, investigative recording. I was literally biting the hand that feeds because there was all sorts of weird wackiness. I'll just make up weird numbers. They had 1000 seats for the nursing program, but they would MIT like 3000 people. And you're like, what are the other 2000 people going to do? That's not fair. And so I was writing reports on that and I was really interested in it. And then it dawned on me, oh, I'm here to get an electronics degree. I should probably pay more attention to that. And so I did that for two years I was the editor, and then I was like, eventually I need to graduate. And so I stepped down as editor and was just a writer. And the first thing the new guy came in is he changed the name and changed a whole bunch of stuff and it was just like, my baby. So it's a little hard to leave now. If they had paid me 15.5 million, I would have been fine leaving.

Daniel J. Lewis [00:22:57]:

Right.

Dave Jackson [00:22:58]:

But it is going to be it's different. And I've had people say because I was there for like another year and a half, they're like, man, the newsletter just hasn't been the same because I was always doing fun stuff and they weren't doing investigative reporting. So, yeah, it'll be interesting to see what happens. And if you're not sure, like, hey, I've been doing this for a while. I have a fair amount of downloads, I've got a fairly niche audience. Is it Heather? What's Heather's last name? Osgood.

Daniel J. Lewis [00:23:31]:

Heather Osgood from True Native Media?

Dave Jackson [00:23:33]:

Yeah. And she's launched a business, I think it was this year. What's the name of it again? Daniel?

Daniel J. Lewis [00:23:39]:

Thepodcastbroker.com.

Dave Jackson [00:23:42]:

Yeah. So you can actually go over and kind of submit your show like, hey, I've done this, here are my numbers, et cetera, et cetera. And then I guess at that point, broker if somebody wants to buy it, because in theory, Daniel, you've done this. This is a great strategy. Somebody had a podcast about very similar to yours and they pod faded, right? And you just went over and said, hey, can I buy your feed and.

Daniel J. Lewis [00:24:08]:

Redirected it to except I didn't ask. They let it expire even better. Yeah, I acquired it and yeah, forwarded it to my show and I made sure to make the episodes around that transition. I made sure to make the episodes have more content that that audience coming over would be interested in, as well as I made some very specific welcome announcements to them so they'd know why they're suddenly hearing us instead of someone else. And it was fun because literally overnight it septupled my audience. That's seven times the audience that I had literally overnight. But a lot of that audience did leave. And yet there's another. But still, in the end, when everything settled from that, we still had more than double the audience we had before. So it was worth it.

Dave Jackson [00:25:03]:

So where do you go to monitor dead URL?

Daniel J. Lewis [00:25:10]:

It's like I waited twelve years to get Danieljlewis.com and I think I set a reminder, maybe a calendar thing or something like as the expiration date was approaching, to then see if it was being renewed. That's the kind of thing just knowing your, quote, competition or other people in your space that you might be interested in, like, if you're wanting to acquire someone else's audience, just being familiar with what else is out there. Following them to the extent that you know what's going on and if they might be ending their show or interested in maybe growing their show, and you might want to sell your show to them, there can be lots of opportunities there. If not now, maybe later.

Dave Jackson [00:25:51]:

Yeah, I ran into a similar situation. Ariel Nissanblatt has a show about promos. And I had started the I think it was the podcast promo show, and I started it. I didn't follow my own advice and do a couple of episodes. I did one and everything went flawless and I was like great. And then I started doing more and the source I had for promos kind of fell through and the promos I was getting were awful. Like really bad. My favorite was a weight loss show and the guy would just say keywords. It was like keto, protein powder, whatever. So they launched the show and they said, would you mind promoting the show on your show? And I said, I'll do one better. I said, I will redirect my feet. I'm done with this. When I don't want to do it anymore. And they're like, great, thank you so much. So that might be something that when we think about selling our show, just find a show similar to yours and go, how'd you like to buy my audience? And then the great thing about that strategy, if you think about it, is you could make it really well planned, and you could have them on your show to kind of do maybe a co hosted show. And then they could bring you over to their show, et cetera, et cetera, and then just finally have one where they take it over and off you go. So that would be a great strategy in a way, too, because on one hand, it's kind of like you have your baby and to just abandon it, you're like, well, all right, see, I'm out of here. I'm just going to go to the Bahamas. Have fun. Whereas if you could redirect them to somebody who's still going to help them and give them what they want, I think it might be an easier transaction to do rather than just because it's hard to leave. I still occasionally go back to a weight loss show. I do maybe one every three months. But I mean, there are thousands of people on that feed. I'm like, I can't just let it sit there.

Daniel J. Lewis [00:27:49]:

I think it was either Tom Webster or Evotera or maybe both of them who have talked about this previously that podcasts don't have to go on forever. And this is a reason, like over@podcastindustryinsights.com the site I run where it shows active and inactive podcasts. I don't call them abandoned or pod faded or anything like that. And a little side note here, pod fading is something that happens to a podcast. It's not something you do to a podcast. It's what happens really when you do nothing. And yes, there are plenty of pod faded shows where they just slowly faded from existence or were abandoned or pod flashes where it was one episode, a flash in the pan and then nothing. There are also plenty of shows that were really good shows that have ended, and maybe they're even still good shows. They're timeless content. There's no reason that they have to keep going. It's just like, look at all of the great TV shows that are out there from many years ago. Lost is a good one. I rewatched the entire series of Lost recently and found new respect for it. It's high quality TV. Look at Star Trek, the original Star Trek or Star Trek Next Generation or some of these things. Look at the original Star Wars movie. And they didn't continue making Star Wars movies. Oh, wait, they did.

Dave Jackson [00:29:15]:

Yeah, they did.

Daniel J. Lewis [00:29:16]:

Maybe they shouldn't have. You could have said Lord of the Rings, but now they've got the Lord of the Rings TV show. But this stuff, even these things that they're now revisiting and extending, they don't have. To go on forever, Disney. But things can have a final ending.

Dave Jackson [00:29:36]:

Yes.

Daniel J. Lewis [00:29:39]:

For the audacity to podcast, I just don't anticipate ever stopping. There are certain days that certainly, I think, oh, maybe I should just end the show simply because I'm tired that day, or I want to focus on something else. But like you with school of podcasting, how many episodes have you put out now?

Dave Jackson [00:29:58]:

878, I believe is what I'm up to.

Daniel J. Lewis [00:30:01]:

And do you foresee a stopping point for yourself?

Dave Jackson [00:30:04]:

Not really. The only show, and I still enjoy it. It's always fun. But the only show that is really getting harder unless something happens in the news is ask the podcast coach, because I have the same audience. And so I could go like, I go to Facebook groups to find questions, but the questions are always, what's the best microphone under $100? How do I grow my audience? How do I make my money? I've been doing this for three weeks now, so it's hard to find different questions that won't go, oh, no, he's going to talk about whatever, music and podcasting again. So it's really getting tough to do that. And there are times when I'm like and it's early Saturday morning, we do it live. And there are times when I'm like, sleeping in wouldn't be such a bad idea. But I enjoy my time with Jim. I enjoy the chat room. And we always end up there are days when I'm like, Jim, I got nothing. What are we going to talk about? And that's where the chat room will come in. So it's a fun experience. It's live. I think that's the biggest reason why I keep doing it is live is just a different beast and it's fun. But that's one where I think we did it once, where I'm because I know we're not going to miss any shows, but I'm going to London and I'm not going to miss any of my normal shows. But there was one where I missed because I wasn't going to be back on Saturday. And I think we set it up with Jim and he pulled somebody else in and I've done shows without Jim, and we've both said, wow, it's just weird and different because you're live trying to put together some chemistry with somebody that even if you know them, it's not the same flow. Again, going back, it'll be interesting to see what the audience does when you sell your show. But I think sometimes podcasters don't realize the value they deliver because to them, it's stuff they know and it's the people that are listening. Like, I've never thought of that that way, or I've never done, oh, I've never heard of that tool. And so I think sometimes, especially those, I got to be careful, I say this, but there are some people that just turn on the microphone and they have a conversation. And then there are people that take at least a little bit of time to figure out what we're going to talk about. And because of their expertise, can bring value. And that's why I always hear I heard somebody the other day, and I don't recommend this, but they were launching a Patreon and their lowest tier was a buck. And I was like, you're going to lose a big chunk of that to processing fees. And I'm like, pretty much anybody's going to give you one dollars will give you five.

Daniel J. Lewis [00:32:37]:

And Patreon has actually said that they've said that they've seen the conversion rate is about the same for one dollars minimum as for a $5 minimum.

Dave Jackson [00:32:47]:

Yeah. So work at it. Keep growing your audience, always, always deliver value. And who knows, maybe someday you'll be selling your podcast for 15.5 million SATS.

Daniel J. Lewis [00:33:01]:

Or I think that you don't have to feel guilty if you decide to end a show and end it well, for sure. But I don't think you have to feel like it has to go on forever. You can end it, you can retire, you can move on to something else, and then you can use that show. Keep it online, definitely keep it online. If it still has value, you can use that to springboard anything else that you might launch in the future. Just like I mentioned, that do the right thing show that I would have never known the lady was doing anything else if she hadn't dropped in an announcement in the existing feed. So that's leveraging the existing platform that you've built to launch something else, but not stealing your existing platform to go launch some other show on the same platform and then overriding the audience and frustrating people or anything like that. So I think there are plenty of options. The retiree option, the sell it option. And I think that looking into the future of podcasting as an industry, that this idea of acquiring podcasts is becoming more common. And there's even someone right now, a friend, that wants to acquire, kind of acquire one of my podcasts. I'm not hosting anymore. And I've got that issue of if there's anyone else in the world that I would trust to take care of my audience, it's this person. But do I really want to let go of what I've built?

Dave Jackson [00:34:35]:

It's hard.

Daniel J. Lewis [00:34:36]:

Yeah.

Dave Jackson [00:34:36]:

And especially if you're not doing anything with it, then you have that whole, I might go back to it someday. It's tricky. It really is.

Daniel J. Lewis [00:34:47]:

Podcast, Pat craps. That's what some of us are. We're holding on to our podcast because we might someday use it again.

Dave Jackson [00:34:55]:

But speaking of value, we do have a boostogram. So thank you very much. One should we say his name? I know he doesn't want his name said. Have you heard him say that? Adam Curry?

Daniel J. Lewis [00:35:10]:

No, he didn't want his name said.

Dave Jackson [00:35:12]:

He said he was tired of it because he did want it to be about him, I guess, or something, I forget exactly how he said, but he's like, man, I want other people to boost something of that nature. But anyway, but it's a great quote, great thing he shared here because on our show we're talking about brand safe, brand safety and suitability. And he says, we ran into that issue back in 2006 at Pod show and I love this. He says, I planned my exit that very day, build up no agenda, v for V, of course, that's value for value proposition and never look back. It will only get worse, my friends. And yeah, I saw there was another company that is partnering with Barometer. I saw that story come through. And on one hand, I don't think any of my podcasts will get big enough to where I can get a purple mattress, stamps.com, blue apron kind of ad. So I'm not really worried about it because I really think that's who those people are going to be going after, not even going after. Those are the shows that are going to be using that service so they can get their B plus rating and low risk, whatever they're going to call it, go from there. But thank you, Adam, very much for the 10,000 sets.

Daniel J. Lewis [00:36:30]:

Thank you. And that made me think of another idea to all of this. If you've built your podcast monetization model on value for value, you are receiving value from your audience. I have a feeling most of that value would probably follow to whatever else you do. So if you sold the podcast, probably whoever is buying it would not continue receiving that same value from your audience because your audience I get the feeling that this value for value exchange is more because of the personalities, not the content alone. Yeah, it's because of the content, but it's because of who's presenting the content or how they're presenting it, how you are engaging your audience. Whereas with a sponsor, a sponsor will continue sponsoring a show as long as it's relevant and has the audience behind it. You look at what happened with Tucker Carlson and Fox News where they parted ways and then Fox's ratings just have tanked because Tucker is taking the audience with him and he's been posting some stuff on Twitter and he's getting that audience following him on Twitter now. And that's because people have engaged with him, not the time slot, not whatever Fox puts at that same show, or even if they get someone else to try and do the same content. Tucker built a loyal following of Tucker, and I think many of us indie podcasters build loyal followings of us. And so if you have value for value and you want to launch something new to replace your old thing, you could probably count on much of that value coming over to your new thing. And in some ways that makes a show that's value for value based less valuable to a buyer to acquire the show from you because they're not going to get all of that same income. Like you look at EO fire. If this $15 million podcast is indeed EO Fire, which it probably is, you will see that sell. If anyone else is hosting the show, the audience is probably going to stay about the same, and the sponsorship income will probably stay about the same. But with here in Podcasting 2.0 and what we get with value for value, I think we as the independent podcasters and not beholden to companies and sponsors and such, we have so much more portability of ourselves and our audience going with us. And that's exciting.

Dave Jackson [00:39:14]:

Well, another fun thing, as we're sitting here talking about this, I'm like, oh, this could be a case where you give me X amount of money on front, up front, keep me in the split until I receive X amount of SATS. In the event you decide to quit before I get my SATS, I retain ownership of the show.

Daniel J. Lewis [00:39:34]:

Reminds me of a particular podcast awards that was sold and then reacquired.

Dave Jackson [00:39:39]:

Yeah, the other thing you mentioned, Tucker, and I know he's been doing things on Twitter, elon announced today that if you are a Blue verified Twitter user, you get 2 hours or 8GB of space on Twitter to upload video.

Daniel J. Lewis [00:39:57]:

Oh, I'm going to start my video podcast over there on Twitter. Take that, YouTube.

Dave Jackson [00:40:05]:

So I saw that, I was like, all right, here we go. Another weird kind of what is it? $8 a month to be Blue Verified or whatever. Yeah, so that's not a bad deal, I guess. 8GB. That's total, though, that's not a month. So he's not really doing that. I don't know. We'll have to see. But I just saw that it was like, oh, here we go. More video. Nothing to get more excited about, like you said, I'm going to take my video podcast over there. Yes, of course.

Daniel J. Lewis [00:40:35]:

There's certainly nothing wrong, though, if you have a video podcast and you can cross post it to Twitter. Yeah, definitely do it. Native video is great.

Dave Jackson [00:40:45]:

I do want to go back to one point that you mentioned earlier, and it's the word pod fade. I don't know why this triggers some people, but I don't know if we called it Retire or what because Mash, Seinfeld, Cheers, all really good shows eventually stop. Friends, I don't know if you would call that a really good show, but I like it. But they eventually all stop. And I've had people like, oh, I did this and then so and so podfaded. And I've had people like, how dare you say he pod faded. I'm like, well, he quit doing the show without letting his audience know that he was stopping. I'm like, that's pod fade. And I'm not throwing any shade because usually either A, I just thought it was going to be cool and it's not. Or B, I had to start a second job because Susie got braces. I know there's something going on. Why, daniel, you had a really good reason. You took a hiatus, right, to raise your son to me. So I've never quite understood. Not that there's anything wrong with it being triggered by the word podfade. It just means that somebody kind of moved on. They pivoted whatever they did. So if for some reason the phrase podfade triggered you, we don't mean disrespect, but people stop doing podcasts all the time. I've done a number of those, so don't get too bent out of shape, please.

Daniel J. Lewis [00:42:09]:

And there are plenty of great podcasts with timeless content that have ended and can still be promoted today. And so if your podcast can be one of those where you feel like you want to end the show, you don't want to sell it, you can continue to keep it online. And the beauty of the Value for Value or any kind of dynamic content insertion is that you can still use those old episodes to promote whatever you want or continue receiving value from your audience, just like a couple of episodes ago. We talked about that one listener to my Once Upon a Time podcast that gave a donation recently for a podcast that I ended years ago. That can still happen because the podcast is still online and we didn't sell it, we didn't take it down. It's still there for everyone to enjoy.

Dave Jackson [00:42:59]:

The ones that always come to my mind are there's one I think it's the history. I want to say according to Rome or something like that. And then there's Dan Carlin's hardcore history. If Dan quit doing that show, all of his shows are about history, so they're timeless, so he could keep those up forever and he's got ads in them. Or, again, if he was doing Value for Value, he'd be sitting on the beach earning money. So it's great stuff.

Daniel J. Lewis [00:43:26]:

Speaking of the beach, how about we go sit on the beach and while this podcast earns us money?

Dave Jackson [00:43:32]:

I like that. Thanks again for listening. Thanks again to Adam for the boostogram. And I think we'll call that a wrap for episode 18 of The Future of Podcasting.

Daniel J. Lewis [00:43:43]:

Keep podcasting and keep eastern.